Larian Studios Forums General Chat Censorsh*p

OK, this was a topic touched on briefly in the 'More Beautiful' thread. I reckon there I started off too forcefully.
Ask the question-what is censorship? IMHO it is stopping something you deem to be offensive being heard/seen by other people.
To me this is fundamentally wrong. I believe you can warn somebody of the content to be disclosed but it should always be their decision to see for themselves.
I personally don't look at gay porn, I censor it from my own mind. I would not presume to do that for another individual however. I believe this to be an example of one man's poison being another's pleasure.
What are the opinions of others on this? What pisses you off? Do you ever think to yourself 'they shouldn't allow this etc.'? I think to be honest I have a few times.

This is a topic that bothers me greatly as if I do not see it I don't usually believe it and I want to be ALLOWED to see it..... whatever it is. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

'The people vs Larry Flint' is an excellent movie on this topic too....

yup, censorship is stupid, it's F**ked up <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
people decide for themselves what they wanna see, afterwards they can only blaim themselves BUT htey prolly have learnt something as well

My opinion:
We (Germany) have age rating for topics/games etc. We have that for videos, DVD, PC games etc. It is highly critized, but I still consider it correct for people under 18. The prob is, this age rating does not change, there are Marilyn Monroe films that were rated above 16 and they're harmless, just a product of these stuck-up times.

Disadvantage: Gamers/Viewers above 18 have to go through some trouble to get what they want - and this bothers a lot of adults. Still, I believe, for the sake of young people this age rating should be kept as it is.

Problem: Forbidding stuff for under 18 makes curious, the internet allows many accesses to games not suitable for kids.

I guess, censorship will remain problematic: It reduces adults to kids, cause it takes away self-responsibility - on the other hand: are all adults self-responsible cause of their biological age?

When I'm very emotional(angry): I would like to censor everything dealing with violence, racism, intolerance, sexism, pornography - But I know, this will only make these topics more interesting when not accessable.
And censorship takes away personal freedom...

So, to answer your question, Womble: I plead for a definite: YENO (Yes+No)
Kiya, excusing herself as Libra

I think things like child pornography, or any rape or coerced exploitation should most definatly be censored. Only the depraved want to see it, and they are likely to act upon their evil thoughts. I think those who provide that stuff should be drawn and quartered (and I mean drawn and quartered).

Everything else should be up to the individual. It is the parents job to see that their children see age appropriate things. It is the parents job to be vigalent. I'm sure it's impossible all the time to protect one's children, but it is wrong to make society responsible for one's children.

OK, first, I'd like to broaden the definintion a bit.

So, you wouldn't consider keeping top secret information out of the public domain to be censorship?



One man's pleasure can BE another's poison. What about second hand smoke? I would draw a tenuous link and say that smokers are "censured" in restaurants because of the effects of their choices on another. By your argument, you believe this to be wrong?



sure. all the time. I worry about politicians censuring info. before it reaches me, I worry about libraries banning books, and about evolutionary theory being censured from some midwestern school districts. for starters.




yup. definetly makes you put your thinking cap on. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

hmm. is it? I'll go out on a limb here and say that without it, you wouldn't be able to function very well in society.

don't forget that it results in fewer games being sold, too. this further results in developers often crippling the core of their games to make them palatable to censors in order to increase their market share (it's usually the publishers that put the pressure on the devs). Same goes for just about any entertainment medium.

*whew* had a lot of catching up to do <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Results for the German market by viewing Games magazines: Some developers/publishers simply don't go into the trouble to modify their games for the German market, they are not offered here. I believe the main market is considered the USA. I agree, changing red blood into green and enemies into robots may be crippling, but is it such a loss if ego-shooters/brutal strategy games are sold at a lower rate?

I don't want to go off-topic and change Womble's thread from general censorship to youth protection - so just one small remark: Violence can be learned/trained, same goes for self-responsibility, it has to be trained/learned. Violent games/movies solely don't make a gamer/movie watcher a serial murderer, there are far more factors to this, but it is one little brickstone in the growing violence/aggression our whole human society has.

As for censorship apart from games: As an adult I wish to have free access to information - banning books is something completely terrible for me... The German Department for Youth Protection has a large variety of media considered to be harmful for under 18's - so? If they turn 18, they're allowed to have access to it.

I consider political desinformation censorship - and I oppose, cause I'm simply not able to get it.

If freedom of speech, founding a political party is censored - I oppose, even if this party is not agreeing with our German Constitution, as long as they respect laws, it's ok for me. I want to listen to them in public, hear their venom, so I can make up my mind and speak up clearly.

If I would live in a totally protected (censored) society I would have no training, no inner antidote to fight against anti-democratic trends.

As for child pornography: Hypatia, I agree with your opinion <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />, and I agree with your sentence about parental/adult responsibility (I wish I could see more of it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />)
Kiya

Well, sometimes this age-related censorship has really strange effects.
There exists a card game called "Grass", a bit complex, very funny, and it is "based" on the idea of growing your stuff and then searching a market for it, and hinder the other gamers to do the same. Sounds perhaps a bit "terrible", but it really isn't. So that game must not be offered open, and must not be advertized. And in my town there is one shop that sells that game, and they have often problems to have enough games on stock because it is sold so often. Nearly everyone who played it once goes immediately to that shop afterwards to buy it, too <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> That shop always has a list of the top-sellers of the last 4 Month, and for over 4 years there was a black bar at No. 1, because the name of the game must not be displayed <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" /> When I looked at the list 5 months ago, it was still on No. 5...

What kind of stuff ? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

I noticed one example of censorship: Considering the rating system explained by kiya, exactly one Star Wars game was rated in such a way that it is now no more openly available (right word ?) . (I mean Dark Forces I . )

The bad thing is, that in a kind of encyclopedia made by LucasArts, in the german version of it EVERY TRAIL of this game has been cut off. Nothing eminds of it anymore, even in the selling statistics.

That is the kind of censorship I don't want.

Kiya-I have played a LOT of violent games and seen a LOT of violent movies. I would disagree with you in that I have never committed acts of violence because of this. If a person goes out and mugs an old lady, or wants to kidnap and rape a child there are far more evil, twisted motives behind this.
Child porn? I know it exists but have never wanted to see it. I'm going against my fundamental principal to say that yes it should be censored. Unfortunately cesoring the internet is almost impossible. The existence of these websites has helped track down some perverts though. People who might have never been arrested otherwise. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />
So do you support the Nazi party's right to free speech? Because personally I reckon those assholes have had their 3 strikes!

The only games censorship I particularly remember was the changing of the Red Alert 2 box after Sept. 11. I guess due to sensitivity or whatever. I still reckon it was a bit lame. What? We can't look at a burning skyscraper anymore?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

You smoke S_T? Because that pisses me off no end in american restaraunts/bars. I would agree that smokers are censored in this incidence.
Political censorship? Big topic, I'll think about it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

I agree, erasing every trail is censorship. Youth rating was not intended to be like this - it was intended to protect under 18's not censor to adults.

Womble? I don't quite understand your 1st sentence: Did you committ acts of violence cause of games/movies?
I said: Violence - or better willingness to violence - can be "trained", and games/movies are one brickstone to this. It takes maturity and emotional intelligence to deal with conflicts in a constructive way - no one is born with that, this has to be trained, too. So, again, I am for youth rating/protection. This is no censorship = I have access to it as an adult. And making a few cosmetic changes so to undergo youth protection is pretty silly - or marr the game as in Fallout 1 (children sequence was taken out of it, no quest solution possible)

Difficult question: <Heartrending sigh> I don't support the Nazi party's right to speak freely - but I would not forbid it. We have laws here, due to occupation after 2nd World War dealing with Nazism = these laws should not be violated, Nazi parties are forbidden here. We have fascist parties here - I dislike them highly - but I can only fight them in public - if they operate underground, the enemy can't be tackled, they can spread their venom... I can debate or argue with them if they show themselves openly = this is democracy.

The main problem with censorship is again: Am I allowed to react self-responsible or am I treated like a kid - can I rely on others having the same self-responsibility as I have or not. See? That is why I answered with YeNo.
Kiya



Yes, I've heard about this ridiculous procedure in Midwestern School districts - it's a plain joke <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />. I'm glad, religion and politics are separated in Germany. Otherwise it would be the best way to make a trip into Middle Ages again, brrr.
We have a law here (Germany has many laws, we're very lawful <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />, Denazification Law) that books are available for scientific research. So, if you can certify yourself, our little library can provide you with Hitler's Mein Kampf, original version, unpatched, with all bugs. And you need no certification to read Darwin's evolutional theories <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

No Kiya, what I meant was I never been violent because of movies/games. There is a distinct difference between seeing someone get blown away with a machine gun and actually pulling the trigger yourself.
*sighs* Its really tricky to explain if you haven't been in a fight. You get a mixture of the fight/flight response, fear, pain and for the violently-minded, pleasure. This is what makes a psycho or pacifist, their reaction at the very moment of conflict. I think whatever movie/game you've watched/played is the furthest thing from your mind at that point.

It's simply about the individual. This is why global cesorship is wrong, I really don't believe that the guy watching hellraiser then gets up, goes out and kills/fights whatever because of what he saw in the movie.
Movies, games, disturbing internet sites are used commonly as scapegoats by the authorities to easily explain away murders, riots, rapes etc.
The problem is far deeper.

Take the song 'Cop Killer' from Ice-MF-T. Its ABOUT a cop getting murdered. It never tells anyone to go out there and do it! The problems in ghetto area have not been solved by the simple banning of one song. That is sub-moronic.

(Anyone with the lyrics may correct me on this but I don't beleive that was the message of the song-I've only heard it a few times.)

Banning Darwin???? Maybe they burn witches there too. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Grrrrrrrr, this is the 21st goddam century!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/memad.gif" alt="" />

Womble, I still don't understand: I said watching violence alone, does not make anyone violent, other factors have to be added, too - I see no disagreement here.
Kiya

Ahm, when does the mud-throwing part start? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

Sorry, thought you were disagreeing with me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" />

Don't see anyone throwing mud yet..... Allthough mud wrestling...hmmmm. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I love to rant sometimes. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

I agree with Kiya about a YeNo answer. Censorship like everything else can be taken to far; learning not to let it be taken to extremes will be a daily lesson.

Morality must be learned at home. For example, the very first RPG game I played was Balder's Gate. It was extremely hard for me to steal things! I had to force myself to do it initially. Even in <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> I went upstairs first before taking the potions in the room I woke up in. Now take a child who hasn't had a strong background at home learning that stealing is wrong and let them play these games. I'm being half serious and half not serious here, any child I let play my games I make sure I repeatedly say "you know this is a game right? ya da ya da ya da". I mean we do grave desecration! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Seriously, we know it's a game; but, impressionable minds need to be guided and guarded. That's what some of the guides do for us, I bought Grand Turismo 3 for an 11 year old and took it back when I heard you got points for hitting a hooker.

Anyway, there has to be some guides and if the parents don't take the responsibility then society must. We just have to try to not let extremist take over.

sadly it seems far too late for that.

I know, but I do use the M - Mature, T- Teen, E-Everyone as a guide when buying presents or going to a movie. I know that some things may be over controlled but I'm kind of glad that they make teens show ID when buying cigarettes. I know it doesn't stop them if they want to smoke, but it is a small deterrence.