Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity Original Sin - Beta High heels? *Stiletto* high heels? Really?

First high heels, then armor (which already was confirmed) and what next? The more you feed the whiners the hungrier they become. "Well, they changed that and this, but exactly this offends me. And me too! So why not change it too? It needs to be changed!"

In the end it will be an amazing game... made for a selected group of people.

Isn't every game? Nothing is for everyone and everything has an intended audience, and sometimes that intended audience doesn't happen to be you. If the devs didn't want the changes they are making, they wouldn't make them, regardless of the people you call whiners. I kind of get the feeling that, despite what you may think, you are the minority here.

The fact that you didn't notice it is kinda irrelevant. Obviously plenty of people did notice it and it bothered them enough that they asked for it to be changed.

I do find it curious that treating female avatars the same as male is seen as being spineless and giving in to "whiners". It's simple equal treatment.


Y'know, people don't complain just for its own sake. Nor do most people go out of their way to be offended. This thread, and almost all of the posts in it, are simply polite requests that something that people find detracts from the game be changed. Most of the vitriol seems to be coming from people who are opposed to changing anything. By your own logic, then, should we not ignore you, lest we "overfeed" the people hurling insults?

Yes it is Irrelevant. i am very sorry, that I decided to inform the developers that i didn't notice this visual impact that bothers some people to a high degree...

equal treating so, do you want the developers to have a equal art team?
I do think you should realise that artist many a far has great inspiration in the human anatomic.
And by that many artists have their own idea of beautiful if some art actually offends people. that is a good way to say that it has its own soul. art is meant to offend and tear down people it is meant to be provoking and it can never be given a equal ground. of course you can focus group many people in the world and make a awesomely bland art piece and make it incredibly bland. But i hope you realise that by doing that the result is distateful and blandness. nothing human made is done on a equal basis, Those so called Feminists like to think they are fighting for equal rights the reality is that they are trying to shift the power. they are not fighting for the equal rights they are fighting for their own power, which admittedly has been quite dominant by males. However I find it really fascinating that people are expecting artists and developers to treat subjects on a equal basic, because those developers and artists are also human beings with their own thoughts and ideas.

What a fun thread this was. Personally I would, if possible, like to have the choice about what sort of shoe type my female character has. As I do find the idea of her wondering around in this world with stilettos a bit impractical. If it's not possible to have a choice then the boot idea from Larian seems a better option than stilettos as it keeps the height, means they don't have to mess with the animations and they can (hopefully simply) change the textures.

It's not sexist, or using sexism to suggest that a character might want to have practical footwear from stomping around in forests, deserts, beaches, snow covered mountains, marshes and whatever else one might experience on an adventure.

Finally I don't get Kein's problem with people having the CHOICE to have flat shoes / boots / stilettos as they please if it is something that possible. Or why he is getting so riled up at the idea of people presenting there opinion that they think the shoes are impractical and that it would be nice to have the choice or to change them to something more practical. Larian have said they are open to our ideas. He doesn't need to keep arguing what he thinks, when he has clearly stated he thinks they are fine the way they are and that Larian shouldn't change them.

It's irrelevant because the fact that you didn't notice it doesn't mean that others didn't. I notice that you don't go to every thread with bugs and list all the ones you, personally, haven't experienced.


I'm not actually sure what this means.


Alright, but that's also irrelevant here. The harm caused by slightly modifying one character model is presumably less than the breaking of the suspension of disbelief and (likely unintentional) fostering of sexism in the games industry.


I disagree. Art can do all those things, but it is not required to. Further, the fact that something is provocative or offensive does not make it art in-and-of itself.


This is a forum for commentary, criticism, and feedback. If Larian didn't want those then they wouldn't have this forum. I, again, note that you aren't worked up about other bugs. Me, I find bugs annoying, so by your definition they may well be "art", yet no one is up in arms about how people talking about bugs and asking them to be fixed is ruining the game.


A tiny, tiny, minority of people who call themselves "feminists" are, in fact, misandrysts, yes, but most aren't. I believe that true equality is both possible and desirable.

Further, you're making the logical fallacy known as an "appeal to nature". Just because humans are naturally biased does not mean that that bias is a good thing or that we should not work to overcome it.

+1 to everything you said GDwarf.

In general, I find myself between a rock and a hard place, as the saying goes, trying to re-assert that being feminist does not put me in the camp with the misandrists (who strike me as simply wanting to have the power to abuse males like females can be abused now in many Western cultures).

Art is a funny thing, too, that I don't believe can possibly come to any clear definition. I thoroughly enjoyed attempts by thinkers like Nietzsche though to try to give it a clearly new and different, but still no more analytic or full, definition, though.

In general, I think what people need to realize is that even if they aren't feminist, for whatever reasons they end up not caring, be it opinions on morality etc. etc., what it ultimately comes down to in a civil society is the availability of disagreeing and still being taken seriously in disagreeing.

That is, as long as feminists don't run around pretending to be holding the true moral banner that all must convert to, and yet they are still taken seriously by the rest of the communities, we can talk about this issue and decide case-by-case who is going to align with what.

All that said, I do find myself fully believing that there is better justification for being feminist than not, but no good justification for being misandrist.
__

TL;DR: Well said GDwarf. I appreciate your posts in general so far, on the whole. Take my +1's. YOU MUST. Heh.

Well that much is true to some extent. As always when trying to find common ground, it implies everyone has the capacity to put his or her own thoughts into perspective. I can disagree just about anything, if I'm allowed to, but then anyone should be able to disagree with the fact that I should be taken seriously. Freedom is an absolute concept, there is no middle ground, which is why it is a much more delicate matter than just waving around noble concepts.

As far as this topic goes, if folks want to have flat shoes on Scarlett, sure, ask for it, I see no problem with that. But let's not make it a gender equality matter. That's not what defending the feminist cause is about. That's just falling in the cliché that every depiction of a woman in a video game has to be sexist, or worse, waving the sexist accusation to reinforce one's personal opinions. Quite the popular topic these days, and in many cases (not all) wrongfully so. I doubt Scarlett's heels has made any woman's life more miserable. There are other battles to fight to promote gender equality, some that are much more meaningful.

As much of the rest of the thread has noted, it was mostly an aesthetic issue out of objectors, me included. I was simply generally talking about sexism and feminism in response to GDwarf.

And you can technically nonsensically disagree with anything while not disagreeing with anything ever, if we're going to play the true freedom game (In other words, I can be absurd and difficult if I so desire with complete freedom). I'm free to break logic after all, strictly speaking.

If we're going to get anywhere (i.e. contain the absurdity), ever, in conversation, we need to both hold the idea that the other party may agree or disagree and that they may have justification equal to or surpassing ours potentially in their agreement or disagreement, and as such I would suggest those be restrictions on our freedoms in order to uphold some form of logic and argument. How we evaluate argumentative merit to know the latter bit is something to talk about though, sure.

It is possible to discuss freedom without resorting to extremeties. I.e.: sure I can say anything, it won't make it smart. Nietzche, that you enjoy quoting, had a nasty habit of disagreeing with everything and everyone. I doubt you consider his thoughts nonsensical. And that's actually because you agree with them. Can you see where this is headed? Now that we've covered sexism and feminism, let's not make this a freedom topic. It's too easy to wave around noble ideas and dismissive arguments (myself included), and certainly doesn't bring much to the table.

I get bored of seeing these topics flourish on every game forum I go through. I neither agree or disagree, I just get tired of this farcical trend. There are tons of very interesting posts on this forum to discuss the game and how to make it better, yet the one that stays on first page is the one about Scarlett's heels. One might argue that I am also responsible for this, which is true to some extent. What I mean is it's time we moved on. I'm not sure how this even became a big issue to begin with. Honestly, I don't even care. We've had enough I think. Point's been made. And this was mine.

There's no bad feeling in what I say, rest assured. Would it be other more suitable circumstances, I would gladly discuss argumentative merit, freedom, or sexism.

Hi again, your right i have not been very active before the saving problem arrived.
the reason is that i only been interested how the co-op features of the game is going to play out because that is my reason for appealing so strongly to this game.

Now regarding why i hadn't reported more bugs and thoughts. well i hadn't been able to go very far into the game seeing the game crashes before i get my first Saving done.

But even then i thought this topic had uneven opinions. and so i decided to share my thoughts.
And regarding that. i think i am the only one realising how much work it is to start redesigning a character, i bet it will take valuable time out of other more important matters. Now don't go telling me that because i am saying more important that i don't regard your and everyone elses opinion as non valuable. thats not what i am saying, But i still believe that this is not a game breaking thing it is a slightly visual impact that offends a group of people and to some degree i get the points that it for the first could be seen as impractical regarding traveling the game world. what got me to respond to you however is my personal disbelief for a equal future. and i strongly think it is undesirable to treat everyone equally which is not the same a abuse. btw. i know history has not been kind to everyone and still is not. regarding a lot off things. but more to the point i really think its unfair to believe developers can use years of there time to regard such a complex matter before they put something into games. I admit i don't understand the whole Sexisme debate in either Anime nor Games. but let me tell you this much. i find it regardless of men and woman poison to the industry and because i invested a lot of time in this industry as a hobby i just do not sit silent by watching the internet rage.

I hope you understand my matters, and why i took action. i have no desire to start a fight and i think it would be great if sometime you can change the boots on your character men and women likewise. after all more customization makes it more appealing to create your character.

Just want to register one more vote against high heels on an adventurer. It's just dumb.

I hate those heels. They are so reminiscent of all the corrupted behaviors I hate in this modern world. I'm playing video games to escape this. I'm playing medieval inspired games because there is less chance I will have to put up with the vulgar attitudes and fashion that make me depressed after looking at most people in the streets.

I've backed this game because in one of the Kickstarter videos Swen said the models were temporary and they were to remove the heels (it's how I understood it anyway). I'm just asking for an option. I'll put up with the vulgar faces and the rest but those heels are too much for me to endure – even after forteen years of good RPG penury.

I suggest playing Duck Dynasty the video game for your realism and hopefully it won't get your panties in such a bunch.

Vulgar, corrupted behaviors.... rofl. Forgot to take your meds this morning?

Also Swen said nothing about removing the heels (specifically) (gotta love selective comprehension) but I'm sure they will just to please you.

You guys have your heads so far up your asses it's not even funny. It's not about you not liking the heels, that's fine, it's this insane attitude of it's so vile and evil and degrading to women's rights or some crap. Can't wait till the modding tools come out, you guys are gonna crap elephants with some of them mods.

Just give the option in char creation if you want heels or not. Problem solved.

And good job necro rezzing this thread *cheers*

Take a 5h pause, come back and have a look at how aggressive you are. Until you can be wiser, more comprehensive, than the people you incriminate, you'd better keep it shut because you're doing no good to anyone, not even to you. I know I know, the mere satisfaction you feel for barking at people you despise is too tempting, isn't it? This, Mr Von_Rotten, this is your weakness. You are too weak to resist your aggressive feelings, to surpass them and feel compassion for me. To drive this conversation to a good end. And you will continue to be so. You read this and you just want to take apart my pretentious lecture. I tease you and you're unable to stand back and react objectively. You are at the mercy of your destructive emotions.

Happy Valentines!

I'll have to agree with Rotten.

This kind of complaint is just irrelevant for this sort of game.

The game's modding capabilities will be extensive- I'm sure it'll be easy enough to make shoe models for female characters.

Drugs are bad, ok?

Come on, this sounds like the faint bark of a dog accepting submission. You can do better than this! :^D

Good to know you are just trolling. You had me believing you actually meant what you said in your original post. Good job sir.

I see, still trying to corner me with an aggressive stance. I didn't have any hope to see a glimpse of wisdom from you but you still disappointed me Von_Rotten. Yes, it means I am weak too, but somehow, acknowledging it makes up for it a good bit – you can do it to! So, good luck. I'm putting a bittersweet end to this discussion now. (Of course you will want to answer me with another one-line post to have the final word, but it would just resonate in the void of my resignation to have any interesting exchange with you.)

As much as high heels is irrelevant to this sort of game. You like them, ok; I hate them, let me ask for an option.

Quoting Swen : "it apparently is more work to change than one would expect because it affects the skeleton that's being used in the animations." So if they don't do it, it will either never be done by mods, or very poorly.