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Re: I feel leech is broken (Game balance discussion) [Re: FelixDK] #520710
16/07/14 09:01 AM
16/07/14 09:01 AM
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Sephius Offline
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I must admit, as a big two-handed tanky warrior-- Leech is broken.

I accept that physical damage is 50% of the damage you receive in this game, but to use that as an argument for leech not being broken is untenable.

When you get to a point when you think "Phew, that guy is only hitting me with an axe. I'm safe." then you must admit that somethings wrong.

I'm not saying the game is broken as a result, but I won't be heart broken if the % ratio of heals got reduced in the next patch, or if perhaps you only get heals when you DEAL damage.

Re: I feel leech is broken (Game balance discussion) [Re: FelixDK] #520727
16/07/14 09:26 AM
16/07/14 09:26 AM
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Bloodletting + Leech allows you to survive and instantly recover from any hits that don't instantly kill you.


If you seriously don't think that's OP you haven't tried it.

Re: I feel leech is broken (Game balance discussion) [Re: FelixDK] #520745
16/07/14 09:47 AM
16/07/14 09:47 AM
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Halcyon Offline
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Swen said he was looking forward to seeing all the ways in which players would be able to exploit and break the game. I do not think this combination is OP at all. It's simply a technique to use for those who want it. If you feel it isn't fun, just ignore it.

Re: I feel leech is broken (Game balance discussion) [Re: Halcyon] #520791
16/07/14 10:45 AM
16/07/14 10:45 AM
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Shaki Offline
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Originally Posted By: Halcyon
Swen said he was looking forward to seeing all the ways in which players would be able to exploit and break the game. I do not think this combination is OP at all. It's simply a technique to use for those who want it. If you feel it isn't fun, just ignore it.


Sure it isn't op. Immortality isn't op at all. This is pretty balanced, because with leech game becomes so boring, that you can fall asleep at any moment, and hit the keyboard with your head, accidentaly removing all of your savegames. So this is very dangerous trait, and it's completely justified that it makes your char immortal.




No, not really. Leech is op. More op than anything in this game. Need to be fixed.

Re: I feel leech is broken (Game balance discussion) [Re: FelixDK] #520792
16/07/14 10:50 AM
16/07/14 10:50 AM
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To be honest, in a non-competetive game, I couldn't give two figs about "balance".
It's not like using Leech would spoil someone else's enjoyment, and you don't have to use it if you don't like it.
On my first playthrough, I didn't take it at all, and that wasn't because I thought it was "OP" or "imba". It just didn't fit with the way I wanted to play.

Re: I feel leech is broken (Game balance discussion) [Re: FelixDK] #520797
16/07/14 10:58 AM
16/07/14 10:58 AM
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Halcyon Offline
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Some people cannot handle that other people like to have fun in ways they don't approve of.

Re: I feel leech is broken (Game balance discussion) [Re: Halcyon] #520810
16/07/14 11:15 AM
16/07/14 11:15 AM
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Shaki Offline
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Originally Posted By: Halcyon
Some people cannot handle that other people like to have fun in ways they don't approve of.




I don't give a shit if you want to play on godmode. Probably on one of my playthroughs in the future I'll also want to try immortal character. Any game should have cheats, coz cheats can be fun. But they should be accesible by writing some stuff into console, and not picking traits.


Originally Posted By: Mungrul
To be honest, in a non-competetive game, I couldn't give two figs about "balance".
It's not like using Leech would spoil someone else's enjoyment, and you don't have to use it if you don't like it.
On my first playthrough, I didn't take it at all, and that wasn't because I thought it was "OP" or "imba". It just didn't fit with the way I wanted to play.




Ffs, but you don't know you don't want to use it, before you actually use it. You take a funny looking traits, and then few hours later you realize you're immortal, and you're stuck with it. Of course, sure you can restart the game and lose hours of playing, or you can respec after next 30 hours of playing and lose all your spells. But this is not a very "fun" option.

Enabling godmode should be a conscious decision, you shouldn't be able to do it accidentaly. At least, they should add big red "GODMODE" sign, to the description of leech. This shit spoiled completely one of my playthroughs.

Last edited by Shaki; 16/07/14 11:17 AM.
Re: I feel leech is broken (Game balance discussion) [Re: FelixDK] #520841
16/07/14 12:04 PM
16/07/14 12:04 PM
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Make Leech heal more the lower your health is, cap each instance of healing to a percentage of missing HP (capping at 70% missing HP equaling to a maximum healing cap per instance of healing of 5% of your maximum HP, or some other similar system)

Re: I feel leech is broken (Game balance discussion) [Re: Shaki] #521043
16/07/14 04:04 PM
16/07/14 04:04 PM
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Mijin Offline
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Originally Posted By: Shaki
Originally Posted By: Halcyon
Some people cannot handle that other people like to have fun in ways they don't approve of.




I don't give a shit if you want to play on godmode. Probably on one of my playthroughs in the future I'll also want to try immortal character. Any game should have cheats, coz cheats can be fun. But they should be accesible by writing some stuff into console, and not picking traits.


Originally Posted By: Mungrul
To be honest, in a non-competetive game, I couldn't give two figs about "balance".
It's not like using Leech would spoil someone else's enjoyment, and you don't have to use it if you don't like it.
On my first playthrough, I didn't take it at all, and that wasn't because I thought it was "OP" or "imba". It just didn't fit with the way I wanted to play.




Ffs, but you don't know you don't want to use it, before you actually use it. You take a funny looking traits, and then few hours later you realize you're immortal, and you're stuck with it. Of course, sure you can restart the game and lose hours of playing, or you can respec after next 30 hours of playing and lose all your spells. But this is not a very "fun" option.

Enabling godmode should be a conscious decision, you shouldn't be able to do it accidentaly. At least, they should add big red "GODMODE" sign, to the description of leech. This shit spoiled completely one of my playthroughs.


Or you could go back to an earlier save and lose minutes of game play, or simply don't cast bloodletting on your character with leech lol. You guys may not realize this, but you can make yourself impervious to all damage in this game and never even take damage and you wont need leech and bloodletting to heal. There are lots of ways to be OP

Last edited by Mijin; 16/07/14 04:04 PM.
Re: I feel leech is broken (Game balance discussion) [Re: BlackMarch] #521048
16/07/14 04:10 PM
16/07/14 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted By: BlackMarch
Bloodletting + Leech allows you to survive and instantly recover from any hits that don't instantly kill you.


If you seriously don't think that's OP you haven't tried it.


Agree. I get the point of interesting tactics and discovery but that or healing from taking an arrow, it's just weird. If that is what they are after great, but to me my guess is they want experiment in a somewhat logical/non-game breaking way. We could then say "so many other things suck" because they are drab in what they do and the creativity you can use with them.

Re: I feel leech is broken (Game balance discussion) [Re: Halcyon] #521055
16/07/14 04:21 PM
16/07/14 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted By: Halcyon
Some people cannot handle that other people like to have fun in ways they don't approve of.

Don't care how easy they make normal mode. And I fully admit to having a pernicious character flaw, in that I hate playing pick my own difficulty, by deciding when to tie one arm behind my back. I think there's enough individuals that share my character flaw though, to support a difficulty mode where skill balance is taken into consideration.

Re: I feel leech is broken (Game balance discussion) [Re: FelixDK] #521064
16/07/14 04:28 PM
16/07/14 04:28 PM
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Whether balance is important in a single-player game or not, my personal opinion here is this:
A talent that is making you practically immortal, in a game where challenge is definitely supposed to be part of the fun (challenge to some degree, of course, learning some useful tactics will help a lot), is unlikely to be the way the devs intended it to be.
Sure, you can not take it and avoid the feeling of cheating the game that way, but that's not really satisfying, imho.
After all the concept of leech is interesting. It's the execution that might need some tweaking.

Re: I feel leech is broken (Game balance discussion) [Re: Horrorscope] #521065
16/07/14 04:32 PM
16/07/14 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted By: Horrorscope
Originally Posted By: BlackMarch
Bloodletting + Leech allows you to survive and instantly recover from any hits that don't instantly kill you.


If you seriously don't think that's OP you haven't tried it.


Agree. I get the point of interesting tactics and discovery but that or healing from taking an arrow, it's just weird. If that is what they are after great, but to me my guess is they want experiment in a somewhat logical/non-game breaking way. We could then say "so many other things suck" because they are drab in what they do and the creativity you can use with them.


Yup, I agree.

I get the feeling that most arguing for not balancing skills/spells are primarily interested in being OP and just burning through content.

This game has interesting tactics mostly involving status effects, ground effect placement, and some positioning. I love these and how the combat feels like a tabletop system. There are unbalanced components to this game, like any other game. Of course it's up to the devs if they want to do a balancing pass or not.


Blood letting on leech - Instant Full Heal - 6 AP
Only requires 1 point in witchcraft and 7 int for 90% application chance. Currently in our play through this heals 600+ hps, this will continue to go up as it is a full heal.

Strong Regenerate - 110 hps for 2 turns - 4 AP
These stats are for 13 int and 3 hydrosophist which is a 15% boost to the skill.


I like the idea of the leech trait, it just need some adjustment to better balance with other heal skill costs and performance.

Last edited by irongamer; 16/07/14 04:40 PM.
Re: I feel leech is broken (Game balance discussion) [Re: FelixDK] #521066
16/07/14 04:33 PM
16/07/14 04:33 PM
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FelixDK Offline OP
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The problem with leech now is not other peoples fun. It is leech removing fun from my game. It does bother me as I ignore it. Firstly because Madora has leech. SO that's her I can't use in the game. Going to the homestead, I have to filter out all the henchmen with leech. Some of these have the traits I am looking for, for a particular build, but I have to use second best to avoid leech.

Lastly is scews with the difficult setting. If I want to play hard, I should be able to by choosing hard in game menu. But now it is so, that normal with leech, is easier than playing easy without leech.

So it blurs and limits the game. I bypass it, and leave each to their own. But I should be allowed to critizise. Because what if there were like, 10 different things that were all broken? I can just bypass those 10 too can't I? Of if there were 100 different things that were unbalanced, I could just avoid those 100 things too right?

You should be able to critizise a fault without people arguing to just avoid said fault.

Re: I feel leech is broken (Game balance discussion) [Re: Halcyon] #521070
16/07/14 04:34 PM
16/07/14 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: Halcyon
Swen said he was looking forward to seeing all the ways in which players would be able to exploit and break the game. I do not think this combination is OP at all. It's simply a technique to use for those who want it. If you feel it isn't fun, just ignore it.


Originally Posted By: Halcyon
Some people cannot handle that other people like to have fun in ways they don't approve of.


I don't understand this thinking. We just had an talent adjusted for balance in the last patch. We've had balance passes all throughout development. Why are we trying to balance anything at all if the goal is to watch players exploit and break the game?

Heck, why remove the "T" teleport feature that was in yesterday? Nobody is forcing anyone to press that key and abuse it.. should it be there for those who want to "exploit and break the game"?

I don't care how people abuse Leech in their game.. but I would like to be able to have a talent *like Leech* as an option, without breaking the balance for *my* game in the process.

I think the day developers wash their hands of balancing their own game and instead fall back on the excuse of "abuse it if you want, up to you", we're all in trouble and in for some really crappy gaming.

Re: I feel leech is broken (Game balance discussion) [Re: FelixDK] #521071
16/07/14 04:35 PM
16/07/14 04:35 PM
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I picked leech because I expected it would make healing easier and more interesting (walk over blood on field if wounded). I do believe that was the intention. The solution IMO should be to prevent Leech characters from dropping blood, I hope it's not too complicated.

I also agree with the godmode argument, if someone wants godmode more power to them, but I don't want fun abilities taken away from me due to that. Part of the fun is using everything you've got to overcome challenge, when you have to handicap yourself it's just not the same.

Re: I feel leech is broken (Game balance discussion) [Re: Mijin] #521074
16/07/14 04:39 PM
16/07/14 04:39 PM
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Shaki Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mijin


Or you could go back to an earlier save and lose minutes of game play


Yeah, because you'll realize how OP is leech immediatly after choosing it... It takes a lot of time, and at the beggining game is very hard anyway. But if you pick a couple of talents like leech + comeback kid, on second map you suddenly realize you're immortal. And this is wrong.

Quote:
or simply don't cast bloodletting on your character with leech lol.


Sure, people also could play naked, don't use any armor. Or try to kill enemies with their bare hands. But this applies to people who like to replay the game. On your first playthrough, when you're more casual type of player, you just want balanced difficulty, a challenge, without making this harder for yourself on purpose - because it's destroying immersion. If some talent/skill or their combination make you immortal even on hard difficulty - It should be nerfed. You want immortality, use cheats. Eot.

Re: I feel leech is broken (Game balance discussion) [Re: Gyson] #521083
16/07/14 04:45 PM
16/07/14 04:45 PM
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I think Leech should heal (Damage x 0.25) of every physical melee or ranged attack. If the character attacks an enemy for 100 points of physical damage he would heal 25 points.

Last edited by Wizard1200; 16/07/14 04:51 PM.
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