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Re: An old rant : Why do Goodie-goodies always win? [Re: mickey] #52935
20/04/03 07:23 AM
20/04/03 07:23 AM
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Winterfox Offline
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A few more things...

If a person commits an evil deed, but doesn't think it's evil, does that make him evil? As opposed to a persom committing the same deed, knowing full well that it's evil? What about a mix of both? What if the person doesn't view himself as evil?

An example. In the novels Elfshadow and Evermeet: Island of Elves, a gold-elven traditionalist is cast in the villain's role. He is a noble who clings to the old ways of the a fallen elven kingdom, which was ruled by a council of elders. He also thinks that his race, the gold elves, is superior to all other elves. Therefore, the fact that a moon-elven royalty rules over the elven island is an insult. He has been working toward removing the royalty and restoring the council of elders.

To this end, he employs many means -- assassinating offspring of the royal family, murdering "good" men and women, and stirring treachery from within. But for all that, he still sees his course as noble and righteous, because his race is superior, the only remnants of ancient elven traditions and values. It wasn't until he was visited by evil gods that he has realized how far he'd fallen.

Is he evil?

If certain roles were changed, and certain viewpoints changed, this gold elf would have been the oppressed hero under what he views as evil rulers -- the moon elven royalty. The "good" people he eliminated would have been minions of the evil overlord. If only the book was written from his point of view.

In the same book, the "good" organization, called the Harpers, is also willing to sacrifice a select few for the greater good. The protagonist of Elfshadow, Arilyn Moonblade, was all but sent to die. Her own father, when asked, says that, yes, even at the cost of her life, he would protect a certain elven secret that is tied to the Harpers.

Does the end justify the means? Where do you draw a line between good and evil? Shouldn't the "good guys" care about everyone, willing to sacrifice no one, because life is sacred?

IMO, black evil and white good exist only in the simplest of tales, fables for children -- or bad writing period. It's always rather grey if you contemplate the whole deal.

Re: An old rant : Why do Goodie-goodies always win? [Re: Winterfox] #52936
20/04/03 08:20 AM
20/04/03 08:20 AM
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Setharmon Offline
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Quote:

A few more things...

If a person commits an evil deed, but doesn't think it's evil, does that make him evil? As opposed to a persom committing the same deed, knowing full well that it's evil? What about a mix of both? What if the person doesn't view himself as evil?




That doesn't matter. It's still evil. He should be thought it's evil. Besides really everyone has a sence of good and evil. Some draw the line a bit further than others, some choose the path of evil. But it's still evil.
Good and evil are like whilte and black. There's no grey zone.
A person who commits evil knows he's committing evil or (and?) is sick.
If you look long enough you can justify everything with words. That doesn't make the actions less evil.




~Setharmon~ >>[halfelven]<<
Re: An old rant : Why do Goodie-goodies always win? [Re: Setharmon] #52937
20/04/03 10:12 AM
20/04/03 10:12 AM
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Quote:

He should be thought it's evil.




Is that "he should be thought of as evil", or "he should have thought about it, and known that it's evil"? They're very different phrases, and your sentence structure makes no sense.

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Good and evil are like whilte and black. There's no grey zone.




Where do you live, Setharmon? I want to live in your Utopia of Black and White, too!

Is a murder justified when the murdered man is evil? Is it justified when the murderer did it within a noble cause? What about the murdered man's relatives? Is lying considered evil? Sloth? Gluttony? Pride? Doesn't that make every single person on Earth evil? (Because you aren't going to find a person who's never lied in his/her life.) At which point do you start calling a person evil?

Oh, and look at children. Bullies who beat smaller kids up. Kids who torture domestic pets. Are they evil, too? Is this black and white?

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Besides really everyone has a sence of good and evil.




Really? What about newborn babies? I didn't know that babies were born with an ingrained sense of good and evil pre-programmed into their brains. IMO, it's all about upbringing and society.

Re: An old rant : Why do Goodie-goodies always win? [Re: Winterfox] #52938
20/04/03 11:39 AM
20/04/03 11:39 AM
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Setharmon Offline
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Never said I lived in a black and white world! I live in a world where a minister of justice set lots of criminals free becouse the prisons are overcrowded. That's his solution to the problem. How dumb can you get??? What a great signal that is. "Go ahead, shoplift and kill all you want. You don't have to go to jail couse the prisons are full." I guess he hopes they're all gone vote for him in the upcomming elections.

The sentence makes sence enough. Constantly we are shown what's good and what's evil. Our society shows us what's evil and what not. What's acceptable and what not.
-I'm sorry, I'm not an English prof. Maybe you want to go on in another language?

Bullies that beat smaller children up should be shown it is wrong. I thought that was obvious. It's unacceptable.
Society has influence on good and bad. You can show others what's good and what not.

Who said lying is evil? Sometimes ppl tell lies for the best. You should know when it's smart to lie. To make another person feel better fi.

I also never said that murder is justified. Even murdering a murderer. They all know they did something wrong. And the few who go on killing are sick.

Even newborn children have an idea of good and evil. They inherit the genes of their parents. From birth on you can guide them and show them what's good and what not.




~Setharmon~ >>[halfelven]<<
Re: An old rant : Why do Goodie-goodies always win? [Re: Winterfox] #52939
20/04/03 03:01 PM
20/04/03 03:01 PM
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Quote:

A few more things...

If a person commits an evil deed, but doesn't think it's evil, does that make him evil? As opposed to a persom committing the same deed, knowing full well that it's evil?




yes, both are still evil

Quote:

What about a mix of both? What if the person doesn't view himself as evil?




how you view yourself doesn't change who you are. i could view myself as some gorgeous ladies man, but it won't change the fact i'm still an average looking hack.

Quote:

An example. In the novels Elfshadow and Evermeet: Island of Elves, a gold-elven traditionalist is cast in the villain's role. He is a noble who clings to the old ways of the a fallen elven kingdom, which was ruled by a council of elders. He also thinks that his race, the gold elves, is superior to all other elves. Therefore, the fact that a moon-elven royalty rules over the elven island is an insult. He has been working toward removing the royalty and restoring the council of elders.

To this end, he employs many means -- assassinating offspring of the royal family, murdering "good" men and women, and stirring treachery from within. But for all that, he still sees his course as noble and righteous, because his race is superior, the only remnants of ancient elven traditions and values. It wasn't until he was visited by evil gods that he has realized how far he'd fallen.

Is he evil?




um, he killed people because of a racist attitude. in the real world we consider that evil, and in stories it's evil

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If certain roles were changed, and certain viewpoints changed, this gold elf would have been the oppressed hero under what he views as evil rulers -- the moon elven royalty. The "good" people he eliminated would have been minions of the evil overlord. If only the book was written from his point of view.




like i said, facts do not change to conform to people's viewpoints, it should be the other way around. no matter how you look at it, he was racist dirt-bag.

Quote:

In the same book, the "good" organization, called the Harpers, is also willing to sacrifice a select few for the greater good. The protagonist of Elfshadow, Arilyn Moonblade, was all but sent to die. Her own father, when asked, says that, yes, even at the cost of her life, he would protect a certain elven secret that is tied to the Harpers.




okay, so arilyn's father wouldn't exactly get my vote for father of the year.

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Does the end justify the means?




seldom

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Where do you draw a line between good and evil?




when you start inflicting some type of harm on someone would be a good place to start.

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Shouldn't the "good guys" care about everyone, willing to sacrifice no one, because life is sacred?




should be like that.

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IMO, black evil and white good exist only in the simplest of tales, fables for children -- or bad writing period. It's always rather grey if you contemplate the whole deal.




i disagree, i think evil can be black and white. take stalin, for example, he was evil and there's no debating that. it's pretty black and white.

Re: An old rant : Why do Goodie-goodies always win? [Re: Winterfox] #52940
20/04/03 03:39 PM
20/04/03 03:39 PM
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AlrikFassbauer Offline
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In Antwort auf:

A few more things...

If a person commits an evil deed, but doesn't think it's evil, does that make him evil?




I've recently experienced the exact Opposite:

I made something in a Forum, believed it was right, received heavy criiticism, and believed afterwards I was evil because I did something wrong.

Am I now evil or not ?



When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
--Dilbert cartoon

"Interplay�.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch
Re: An old rant : Why do Goodie-goodies always win? [Re: AlrikFassbauer] #52941
20/04/03 03:49 PM
20/04/03 03:49 PM
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Setharmon Offline
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No Alrik.
Your timing was bad.
Your post and intentions ware right. But you posted it just when others ware bothering someone about the same topic.
They ware out of line. So it's understandable the other party reacted as it was attacked already.




~Setharmon~ >>[halfelven]<<
Re: An old rant : Why do Goodie-goodies always win? [Re: Setharmon] #52942
21/04/03 04:31 AM
21/04/03 04:31 AM
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Setharmon: By your word, evil and good are as black and white. So tell me, is the act of killing, in itself, evil? The act in general, no matter what situation it is applied to?

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Even newborn children have an idea of good and evil. They inherit the genes of their parents. From birth on you can guide them and show them what's good and what not.




It is your part to prove this. Did you pull this out of nowhere, or do you have scientific proof for it?

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I'm sorry, I'm not an English prof. Maybe you want to go on in another language?




Certainly, my dear. Thai, or Cantonese? FYI, no, English is not my first language. I simply happen to be literate.

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yes, both are still evil




Really?

Then every kid who bullies another kid, and every kid who kills ants, must be evil, no buts and no howevers.


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Does the end justify the means?

seldom




If it's seldom, then it's by no means black or white. You just dug a hole in your own logic.

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when you start inflicting some type of harm on someone would be a good place to start.




Then everyone on Earth is evil. Everyone. There are countless ways to inflict harm on others, be it by words, actions, or otherwise. I'll wager that you have inflicted harm on someone, intentionally or no, too.

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Shouldn't the "good guys" care about everyone, willing to sacrifice no one, because life is sacred?

should be like that.




"Should be like that" -- then you have all but stated that good and evil can come in grey. Those "good guys" were about to sacrifice their own for a greater good; the same thing can happen, and has happened, in real history too.

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i disagree, i think evil can be black and white. take stalin, for example, he was evil and there's no debating that. it's pretty black and white.




Did you know him personally? Only when you can prove to me that you knew every facet of his personality will I accept your example.

Quote:

how you view yourself doesn't change who you are. i could view myself as some gorgeous ladies man, but it won't change the fact i'm still an average looking hack.




Point taken.

Re: An old rant : Why do Goodie-goodies always win? [Re: Winterfox] #52943
21/04/03 05:53 AM
21/04/03 05:53 AM
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Setharmon: By your word, evil and good are as black and white. So tell me, is the act of killing, in itself, evil? The act in general, no matter what situation it is applied to?

Quote:

Even newborn children have an idea of good and evil. They inherit the genes of their parents. From birth on you can guide them and show them what's good and what not.




It is your part to prove this. Did you pull this out of nowhere, or do you have scientific proof for it?




um, where else would they get their sense of right and wrong from but the people they first grow up around?

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yes, both are still evil




Really?

Then every kid who bullies another kid, and every kid who kills ants, must be evil, no buts and no howevers.




the third grader who bullies his peers in school is a bad kid, and well on his way to being a bad person when he gets older. being evil doesn't mean you are some sort of maniacal homicidal pyschopath. it just means you enjoy doing a lot of bad things.

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Does the end justify the means?

seldom




If it's seldom, then it's by no means black or white. You just dug a hole in your own logic.




i never said everything was black and white. where are you getting this from? explain to me how i dug a hole in my own logic when you are trying to make two separate things look the same.

in the particular instance, we were talking about that elf book where the guy killed a bunch of people out of a racist attitude to restore some high council.

his means was murder and that doesn't justify what he was doing.

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when you start inflicting some type of harm on someone would be a good place to start.




Then everyone on Earth is evil. Everyone. There are countless ways to inflict harm on others, be it by words, actions, or otherwise. I'll wager that you have inflicted harm on someone, intentionally or no, too.




everyone does things that are evil, or sinful. however, it's habitually doing more evil things than good things that makes a person evil.

everyone does evil things and everyone does good things, it's what you do the most and what is in your heart that defines who you are.

Quote:

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Shouldn't the "good guys" care about everyone, willing to sacrifice no one, because life is sacred?

should be like that.




"Should be like that" -- then you have all but stated that good and evil can come in grey. Those "good guys" were about to sacrifice their own for a greater good; the same thing can happen, and has happened, in real history too.




let me repeat once again, i never said EVERYTHING is black and white. i said not everything is grey. there is a difference. try to read what i say and not what you think i said.

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i disagree, i think evil can be black and white. take stalin, for example, he was evil and there's no debating that. it's pretty black and white.




Did you know him personally? Only when you can prove to me that you knew every facet of his personality will I accept your example.




okay, no offense but your type of logic in this statement makes no sense whatsoever. the man tortured and killed MILLIONS OF PEOPLE! does that mean NOTHING to you? what more do you want? a page from his diary that says "hey, i've killed millions of people in my life, and you know what? i enjoyed it!"? would that validate his evilness to you?

you don't have to know someone personally to know what type of person they are.

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how you view yourself doesn't change who you are. i could view myself as some gorgeous ladies man, but it won't change the fact i'm still an average looking hack.




Point taken.




pheh, if i weren't in the safety of luna's thread i'd forget the whole debate. =OP

Re: An old rant : Why do Goodie-goodies always win? [Re: mickey] #52944
21/04/03 07:29 AM
21/04/03 07:29 AM
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Winterfox Offline
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um, where else would they get their sense of right and wrong from but the people they first grow up around?




Clearly you missed my point. My point is this: newborn babies don't have a sense of right and wrong; this sense comes from upbringing. Throw a newborn baby into the wilderness, and I bet he won't grow up with the same sense of good and evil you and I have.

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i never said everything was black and white.




Interesting. I read that your tone is in disagreement with me. In my opinion, there's always grey somewhere. Always.

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in the particular instance, we were talking about that elf book where the guy killed a bunch of people out of a racist attitude to restore some high council.




I intended to mean in general.

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okay, no offense but your type of logic in this statement makes no sense whatsoever. the man tortured and killed MILLIONS OF PEOPLE! does that mean NOTHING to you? what more do you want? a page from his diary that says "hey, i've killed millions of people in my life, and you know what? i enjoyed it!"? would that validate his evilness to you?

you don't have to know someone personally to know what type of person they are.




What I mean is -- no, maybe Stalin was not completely black. Somewhere in all that slaughter, I bet he must've spared an insect or two. *laughs*

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