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Replace Lizard's 'Fire Breath' with 'Shed Skin' #600533
25/02/17 04:42 PM
25/02/17 04:42 PM
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Stabbey Offline OP
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Most people can agree that the Lizard's Fire Breath ability is not good. It does poor damage and quickly becomes only good for igniting surfaces - a job which can be replaced with a candle in your inventory.

The poor damage is not the only reason why it is sub-par. It is the only racial ability which benefits from points in one specific ability (Pyrokinetic), making it even worse for non-Pyro builds.

The skill can stay in the game, going into the general Pyrokinetic school, but Lizards should get a better Racial Skill.

The best idea I heard was from Nivv.

Originally Posted By: Nivv
Definitely agreed. As I mentioned in another topic, it would be ideal if there were multiple special bonuses one could choose from that was unique to each race, but able to benefit any build.

As an example, for lizard they get +2 int and a breath attack that doesn't really scale well. If it were me, I'd have made the active ability something more universally useful, like say...a shed skin ability that lowers con for 1 turn, but purgres all positive and negative effects.


(Credit where credit is due)


I've tried to flesh the idea out a bit more.

Shed Skin

AP Cost: 0 or 1
Cooldown: 4 to 6 turns
Effect: Immediately removes all positive and negative status effects (except for semi-/permanent ones like the curses from Braccus Rex and the Blood Rose potion), and decreases CON by 1-2 for 2-3 turns (CON penalty scales up with player level to a maximum of -25% health).
Note: Can be used while Muted/Silenced and will clear those effects.

Shed Skin allows Lizards to remove any debuffs and DoT effects on themselves (this cannot target anyone except the Lizard using it), something which is great for ANY build, not just pyromancers. Think how great clearing cripple would be for a warrior or blind for an archer (and possibly even mute for a mage).

Obviously, you cannot remove status effects which cause hard CC because YOU CANNOT ACT TO ACTIVATE "Shed Skin". I didn't think such an obvious statement needed to be pointed out, but I was wrong.


The removal of positive effects and the CON penalty add in tactical considerations to it. If you are buffed, you might not want to sacrifice the buff, if your armor is gone you might not want to sacrifice the health.

Elves get a strong offensive racial skill, this would be a strong defensive racial skill which is useful without being extra powerful.

Also in my personal opinion it is also a better fit for the Lizard race than Fire Breath.

Last edited by Stabbey; 26/02/17 04:46 PM. Reason: reorganized post
Re: Replace Lizard's 'Fire Breath' with 'Shed Skin' [Re: Stabbey] #600549
25/02/17 11:26 PM
25/02/17 11:26 PM
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lx07 Offline
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So you think Lizard should be able to remove stunned, blinded, frozen, crippled, cursed, terrified and knocked down all at once? At the expense of reducing a bit of Constitution?

And you think Flesh Eating is OP?

Can't say I agree with this idea at all.

Fire Breath isn't great but nor is Encourage. You don't have to use them but neither are they completely useless. Elf should be the same - a simple swap of CON for damage would do (if CON did anything). Perhaps charging 1AP would also bring it more into line with other traits.

Problem is constitution is pointless at the moment. If you get stunned and/or knocked down for 2 rounds and don't get up again you will die - it doesn't matter how much constitution you have.

If you could shed your skin you may as well play glass cannon lizard and win every time.

Re: Replace Lizard's 'Fire Breath' with 'Shed Skin' [Re: lx07] #600552
26/02/17 12:04 AM
26/02/17 12:04 AM
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Stabbey Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: lx07
So you think Lizard should be able to remove stunned, blinded, frozen, crippled, cursed, terrified and knocked down all at once? At the expense of reducing a bit of Constitution?


That's wrong. You can't remove Stunned, Frozen, Terrified or Knocked Down because those are hard CC and you can't act to activate the skill to remove them. Hello?


Quote:

Fire Breath isn't great but nor is Encourage. You don't have to use them but neither are they completely useless. Elf should be the same - a simple swap of CON for damage would do (if CON did anything). Perhaps charging 1AP would also bring it more into line with other traits.


If it doesn't already, Encourage should scale up with level.

Adding a 1 AP cost to Flesh Sacrifice seems like a good idea. Even if it still grants the +1 AP on use, that would be better than getting an extra AP for free.


Quote:
Problem is constitution is pointless at the moment. If you get stunned and/or knocked down for 2 rounds and don't get up again you will die - it doesn't matter how much constitution you have.


The problem with CON is a separate issue which should be addressed so that CON becomes something important. Once CON becomes important, then it will matter if you lose some of it thanks to an ability.


Quote:
If you could shed your skin you may as well play glass cannon lizard and win every time.


The skill has a thing called a "cooldown". That means you can't use it all the time. Maybe the cooldown could be 5 or 6 turns.

Re: Replace Lizard's 'Fire Breath' with 'Shed Skin' [Re: Stabbey] #600556
26/02/17 06:31 AM
26/02/17 06:31 AM
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Neonivek Offline

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Well I guess soft-CC needs to be punished... it isn't like people complain enough about how much they hate soft-CC as it is :P

Though... Getting rid of several other CCs like Bleeding, poisoned, on fire, Necrofire, Acid, Diseased... is quite decent.

As well as possibly recovering a tiny bit of armor.

That is what I suggest to change Shed Skin. No "Get out of Touch of Decay" free cards :P

Re: Replace Lizard's 'Fire Breath' with 'Shed Skin' [Re: Neonivek] #600565
26/02/17 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted By: Neonivek
Well I guess soft-CC needs to be punished... it isn't like people complain enough about how much they hate soft-CC as it is :P

Though... Getting rid of several other CCs like Bleeding, poisoned, on fire, Necrofire, Acid, Diseased... is quite decent.

As well as possibly recovering a tiny bit of armor.

That is what I suggest to change Shed Skin. No "Get out of Touch of Decay" free cards :P


It's not my call to make, but I'm quite flexible on what statuses Shed Skin removes or doesn't remove. (Except for hard CC, which by definition it can't remove because you can't act to use the skill when you are afflicted.)

Re: Replace Lizard's 'Fire Breath' with 'Shed Skin' [Re: Stabbey] #600571
26/02/17 04:37 PM
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DamienHaaayHaaay Offline
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This is great. I vote for more new stuff that doesnt feel like spells/skills got copied right out of the previous game...

Re: Replace Lizard's 'Fire Breath' with 'Shed Skin' [Re: Stabbey] #600636
28/02/17 05:35 PM
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lx07 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Stabbey
Originally Posted By: lx07
So you think Lizard should be able to remove stunned, blinded, frozen, crippled, cursed, terrified and knocked down all at once? At the expense of reducing a bit of Constitution?


That's wrong. You can't remove Stunned, Frozen, Terrified or Knocked Down because those are hard CC and you can't act to activate the skill to remove them. Hello?
Good point. I didn't really think that through. Beg your pardon.

Re: Replace Lizard's 'Fire Breath' with 'Shed Skin' [Re: lx07] #600638
28/02/17 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted By: lx07
Good point. I didn't really think that through. Beg your pardon.


No problem, everyone has brain cramp moments from time-to-time.

Re: Replace Lizard's 'Fire Breath' with 'Shed Skin' [Re: Stabbey] #600656
01/03/17 09:49 PM
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I vote for this change, since said fire breath is weak AND for some reason cant hit/pass through chests (and maybe other floor objects, forgot to check)? Chest is maybe 2 feet tall, I am 5-6, how does this chest stop fire breath!

Re: Replace Lizard's 'Fire Breath' with 'Shed Skin' [Re: Stabbey] #600664
02/03/17 01:57 AM
02/03/17 01:57 AM
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+1 to Shed Skin. If they gave an option for different breath types (poison breath, ice, electric, etc.) at character creation, and like, tripled the damage, and decoupled it from intelligence entirely, only tying it to level, the elemental breath could be an okayish racial. But shed skin just sounds way more interesting and universally useful but with meaningful downsides.

Now how about the dwarf racial? Random idea:

Stone's Embrace: rock shoots up from the ground at a target and covers it in rock. This restores 50-75% of the character's physical armor, but reduces their speed dramatically or perhaps makes them stuck in place.

A versatile skill that can be used offensively or defensively, but must be used wisely either way.

Last edited by Baardvark; 02/03/17 02:11 AM.
Re: Replace Lizard's 'Fire Breath' with 'Shed Skin' [Re: Stabbey] #600667
02/03/17 03:12 AM
02/03/17 03:12 AM
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Great Idea!

I like to have fully optimized characters, and don't like how Fire Breath nudges a Lizard towards being a Pyrokinetic. I'd like to see Fire Breath ability moved to the Pyrokinetic skill tree and replaced with a non-elemental ability. I'm not particularly attached to the "shed skin" proposal but a scale based defensive ability seems like a great choice.




Last edited by stobe; 02/03/17 03:13 AM.
Re: Replace Lizard's 'Fire Breath' with 'Shed Skin' [Re: Stabbey] #600674
02/03/17 03:07 PM
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I like this idea: I guess they might've been thinking lizard = something like dragon sooo fire breath, right? smile

I guess hard cc would also include something like mind control skills(if they ever give it to opponents).

Noob Qn: Will this skill succeed everytime you use it or is there a : % of success thing, that increases with your levels?

Last edited by DrunkenTofu; 02/03/17 03:09 PM.
Re: Replace Lizard's 'Fire Breath' with 'Shed Skin' [Re: Stabbey] #600675
02/03/17 03:31 PM
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Even though I'm not really a player of lizards, I also think this is a pretty neat idea: certainly better than the existing racial skill.

Randomly, salamander always makes me think of salami. Because obvious, and because food, even though I don't especially like salami.


J'aime le fromage.
Re: Replace Lizard's 'Fire Breath' with 'Shed Skin' [Re: vometia] #600678
02/03/17 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted By: vometia
Randomly, salamander always makes me think of salami. Because obvious, and because food, even though I don't especially like salami.
Thats brilliant. Lizard should produce a salami with a cooldown of 99. However dont ask where it comes from. If you dare to eat it, then s... happens. laugh
Because obvious, and because shape, even though I don't especially like salami.

Last edited by gGeo; 02/03/17 04:55 PM.
Re: Replace Lizard's 'Fire Breath' with 'Shed Skin' [Re: DrunkenTofu] #600681
02/03/17 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted By: DrunkenTofu
I like this idea: I guess they might've been thinking lizard = something like dragon sooo fire breath, right? smile

I guess hard cc would also include something like mind control skills(if they ever give it to opponents).

Noob Qn: Will this skill succeed everytime you use it or is there a : % of success thing, that increases with your levels?


If you do not have control over your characters actions, you can't use this skill. If you're hit with 3 Hard CC effects, they will all need to be removed before this skill is usable.

It's a racial skill, so it would have a 100% success chance. The biggest exception to the rules I would like (not required, would like) for this skill is being able to use it to remove Silence even though Silence typically means not being able to use any skills at all. But I can live without that exception.

Re: Replace Lizard's 'Fire Breath' with 'Shed Skin' [Re: Stabbey] #600694
02/03/17 11:17 PM
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Nivv Offline
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Definitely think it would be better. I was disappointed that despite the kickstarter writeup about Lizard culture, their abilities and traits did not hint at those values and opted instead for the dragon-like angle. I really thought it was interesting that they as a race supposedly had a huge push towards breeding specifically for physically superior traits, as though their already apparently great intellect motivated them towards conquering the "physical realm" as well.

Re: Replace Lizard's 'Fire Breath' with 'Shed Skin' [Re: Nivv] #600701
03/03/17 05:25 AM
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fantasizing vs balancing it seems larian (at least for the moment) want the lizard class to be the spell caster class.


Rogues are the best

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