Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 5 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: SorcererVictor] #654276
21/07/19 11:06 PM
21/07/19 11:06 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 295
Nobody_Special Offline
enthusiast
Nobody_Special  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 295
Oh, I see. The MG does have optional rules for firearms, so I guess we are still on topic. Please continue as you see fit. (my bad for interrupting the flow of conversation.) oops

Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: SorcererVictor] #654280
22/07/19 03:22 AM
22/07/19 03:22 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,685
The Frog & Hounds
vometia Offline

Duchess of Gorgombert
vometia  Offline

Duchess of Gorgombert

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,685
The Frog & Hounds
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
How aristocrats would see this new technology?

I think the same way as mounted cavalry did (at least apocryphally) in the early days of WW1. Regarding the widespread adoption of machine guns for the first time in a European conflict, they were confident that cavalry charges were still viable because opposing forces would know that their vulgar new contraptions were not to be used against gentlemen.

They were wrong.


J'aime le fromage.
Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: SorcererVictor] #654282
22/07/19 03:50 AM
22/07/19 03:50 AM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 711
_Vic_ Offline
old hand
_Vic_  Offline
old hand

Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 711
In the "D&D Beyond" official 5e page they even have the "gunslinger" archetype for fighters an other one for firearms. I wonder if they plan to do something like that.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/fighter
Combat mounted feats + firearms would be a nice combination of rules. I´ve always wanted to rp a mounted dragón de cuera (The soldier, not the beast).

Last edited by _Vic_; 22/07/19 03:52 AM.
Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: SorcererVictor] #654286
22/07/19 12:58 PM
22/07/19 12:58 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 39
NoVa, United States
BillyYank Offline
apprentice
BillyYank  Offline
apprentice

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 39
NoVa, United States
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Two people here have an fascination with firearms. I down own any firearm, but i visit firing ranges often, so an small comment mentioning balance and using some IRL examples of how balance is mostly in conflict with variety, immersion and historically accuracy lead to this. Anyway, introducing firearms into a D&D game can be interesting. For example, would mages try lobby to prohibit it? And assassinate those who are developing this new research to avoid loss their monopoly on mass destruction? And firearms would be that amazing in a world with magic? If an barbarian tribe can use spells, an situation like Pizarro destroying an civilization would be possible? How aristocrats would see this new technology?


There are firearms and artillery in the Forgotten Realms, but the gods have conspired to make them unreliable. There's also a campaign called Maztica based on the Spanish conquest of the new world. Amn (IIRC, it's been a while since I looked at it) takes the place of Spain and the church of Helm plays the part of the Catholic church.


FABRICATE DIEM, PVNK
Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: vometia] #654295
23/07/19 11:51 AM
23/07/19 11:51 AM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 273
SorcererVictor Offline OP
enthusiast
SorcererVictor  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 273
Originally Posted by _Vic_
In the "D&D Beyond" official 5e page they even have the "gunslinger" archetype for fighters an other one for firearms. I wonder if they plan to do something like that.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/fighter
Combat mounted feats + firearms would be a nice combination of rules. I´ve always wanted to rp a mounted dragón de cuera (The soldier, not the beast).


Imagine playing with as an mounted arquebusier. Sounds interesting.

Originally Posted by BillyYank
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Two people here have an fascination with firearms. I down own any firearm, but i visit firing ranges often, so an small comment mentioning balance and using some IRL examples of how balance is mostly in conflict with variety, immersion and historically accuracy lead to this. Anyway, introducing firearms into a D&D game can be interesting. For example, would mages try lobby to prohibit it? And assassinate those who are developing this new research to avoid loss their monopoly on mass destruction? And firearms would be that amazing in a world with magic? If an barbarian tribe can use spells, an situation like Pizarro destroying an civilization would be possible? How aristocrats would see this new technology?


There are firearms and artillery in the Forgotten Realms, but the gods have conspired to make them unreliable. There's also a campaign called Maztica based on the Spanish conquest of the new world. Amn (IIRC, it's been a while since I looked at it) takes the place of Spain and the church of Helm plays the part of the Catholic church.


There are simple firearms on D&D, but nothing like smokeless powder cartridges or even an lever action .30-03 and i know why. Picking an Me 262 for eg, he could defeat an Terrasque even in one turn. I an not joking. An an ancient silver dragon can fly 250 feet, or 76.2 m speed. An Me 262 that can fly 909 km/h or around 250m/s or 1500m in a 6 seconds(an turn on BG1/2). And his cannons, considering that an ballista deals 4d8 damage, IMO the bare minimum that an 30mm cannon should deal would be 6d8 with "ball" ammo, HE ammo should deal something like 10d10 fire in a small area of effect, with 600 rounds per minute for each cannon(the plane has 4), 40 shots in one second, an single 3 second burst would vaporize an terrasque and Armor Piercing ammo should negate most target DR...

Not mention, post WW1 firearms are insanely powerful compared to D&D spells, but why spend so much time studding and researching it when you already have a lot of deadly spells?? I remember on "anime" Gate, people on medieval kingdom was thinking that the "green man" are an army of high level sorcerers using other worldly sorceries. Only demigods like Rory Mercury could defeat modern soldiers,



Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
How aristocrats would see this new technology?

I think the same way as mounted cavalry did (at least apocryphally) in the early days of WW1. Regarding the widespread adoption of machine guns for the first time in a European conflict, they were confident that cavalry charges were still viable because opposing forces would know that their vulgar new contraptions were not to be used against gentlemen.

They were wrong.


Cavalry charges against ranged enemies din't worked well since the battle of Agincourt and they had only longbows...

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 23/07/19 12:08 PM.
Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: SorcererVictor] #654300
23/07/19 04:59 PM
23/07/19 04:59 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,685
The Frog & Hounds
vometia Offline

Duchess of Gorgombert
vometia  Offline

Duchess of Gorgombert

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,685
The Frog & Hounds
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Not mention, post WW1 firearms are insanely powerful [snippetypoo]

And pre, for that matter. I was talking to a chap round here who made a very, very powerful sort of "artillery crossbow" (my terminology, not his, as he actually knows what he's doing and makes proper period-correct stuff for major league films etc) which he demonstrated for me. He was actually going to let me have a go myself, which could be considered slightly reckless given I'm "that person" my managed to impale her own foot using a garden fork by aiming it at the ground and missing, but it wasn't quite ready. Anyway, I said "blimey!" at the noise, recoil and devastation to which he replied that actually it was less powerful than a .22. I know that momentum and power aren't the same thing (a fractional amount of my A-level physics has stayed with me) but the point was made.

Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Cavalry charges against ranged enemies din't worked well since the battle of Agincourt and they had only longbows...

And in the 83rd century when we have another war caused by the usual "this would be much better if it was a video game", we'll still have cavalry charges even though the nuclear-powered anti-grav robo-sharks with lasers for eyes are incinerating them, because "robo-sharks know they shouldn't be using their eye-lasers against gentlemen. Oh, lawdy, my bottom's on fire, to quote Ms de Arc. Ouch."


J'aime le fromage.
Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: SorcererVictor] #654510
03/08/19 11:59 AM
03/08/19 11:59 AM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 238
Hawke Offline
enthusiast
Hawke  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 238
Honestly, it would be interesting if Baldurs Gate 3 had the option to fully customize all rules in the game. DND in real life is so popular because it offers so much customisation but in videogames, we are only allowed to follow the rules the devs made up. Of course, the devs should clearly communicate that these rule changes are not the way they want you to play the game and they take no responsibility if you break your game.

Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: SorcererVictor] #654514
03/08/19 02:39 PM
03/08/19 02:39 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,118
S
Sordak Offline
old hand
Sordak  Offline
old hand
S

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,118
Thats called modding.

Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: Sordak] #654516
03/08/19 03:37 PM
03/08/19 03:37 PM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 711
_Vic_ Offline
old hand
_Vic_  Offline
old hand

Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 711
Originally Posted by Hawke
Honestly, it would be interesting if Baldurs Gate 3 had the option to fully customize all rules in the game. DND in real life is so popular because it offers so much customisation but in videogames, we are only allowed to follow the rules the devs made up. Of course, the devs should clearly communicate that these rule changes are not the way they want you to play the game and they take no responsibility if you break your game.

Originally Posted by Sordak
Thats called modding.


I think any modern RPG game who wants to be more than a sidenote of a few months have to offer customization and modder´s support.

Last edited by _Vic_; 03/08/19 03:37 PM.
Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: Sordak] #654517
03/08/19 03:38 PM
03/08/19 03:38 PM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 238
Hawke Offline
enthusiast
Hawke  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 238
Originally Posted by Sordak
Thats called modding.


Nope, some games have options to change the rules built-in in the main game. I don't have the patience to work through long tutorials when I simply want to change some small things.

Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: Hawke] #654522
03/08/19 06:02 PM
03/08/19 06:02 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 295
Nobody_Special Offline
enthusiast
Nobody_Special  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 295
Originally Posted by Hawke
Originally Posted by Sordak
Thats called modding.


Nope, some games have options to change the rules built-in in the main game. I don't have the patience to work through long tutorials when I simply want to change some small things.


But are you just talking small things or completely different rule sets which are not small things.

Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: Hawke] #654550
04/08/19 09:31 PM
04/08/19 09:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 273
SorcererVictor Offline OP
enthusiast
SorcererVictor  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 273
Originally Posted by Hawke
Honestly, it would be interesting if Baldurs Gate 3 had the option to fully customize all rules in the game. DND in real life is so popular because it offers so much customisation but in videogames, we are only allowed to follow the rules the devs made up. Of course, the devs should clearly communicate that these rule changes are not the way they want you to play the game and they take no responsibility if you break your game.


I strongly agree. Look to Neverwinter Nights 1 for eg. On normal difficulty, friendly fireand petrification works completely different than "D&D hardcore" difficulty. The problem with NWN is when they not only din't followed rules(only one summon BS, pale master giving no caster level, etc) but they also hard coded it to make hard to mod the game and make more pnp like.

If the game is mod friendly, i an sure that people will make the game more pnp like. People did it with PRC on nwn1 who isn't exactly that friendly to mods...

Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: SorcererVictor] #654587
06/08/19 08:16 AM
06/08/19 08:16 AM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 86
Scotland
hairyscotsman Offline
journeyman
hairyscotsman  Offline
journeyman

Joined: May 2013
Posts: 86
Scotland
As someone who's played D&D since the 80's, and loved the BG series, I must say that my experience of D&D in computer games has led me to realize that it's not suited to computer games, and having now played 13th Age, it's not even that good anyway.
I'm delighted they'll be modding that particular d20 system, and very good luck to them.

Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: hairyscotsman] #654592
06/08/19 05:57 PM
06/08/19 05:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 273
SorcererVictor Offline OP
enthusiast
SorcererVictor  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 273
Originally Posted by hairyscotsman
As someone who's played D&D since the 80's, and loved the BG series, I must say that my experience of D&D in computer games has led me to realize that it's not suited to computer games, and having now played 13th Age, it's not even that good anyway.
I'm delighted they'll be modding that particular d20 system, and very good luck to them.


Why not suited to computer games???

As someone who saw TONS of adaptations, from Sword Coast Legends to Temple of Elemental Evil, i can say by my experience. All rule deviations that i saw resulted in a worst game.

* Pale Masters is useless on NWN1 due no +CL and artificial only one summon BS
* Arcane archer who can only imbue fire are useless too since fire is the most resisted element
* A lot of spells becoming useless on pathfinder kingmaker due ultra nerfed range
<can continue listing>

My point is that there are already 6576576346547653*10²³ games with boring mechanics, an combat where you never miss, but enemies need 5000 hits to die, with BS mechanics like cooldown, with level and attributes meaning nothing. Why BG3 should be more akin to an generic mmo than to BG?

Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: SorcererVictor] #654618
09/08/19 08:57 AM
09/08/19 08:57 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,148
Dark_Ansem Offline

old hand
Dark_Ansem  Offline

old hand

Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,148
I can't spend enough words to say how bad Pale Master is in vanilla NWN


In-Development: Turn-Based cRPG, late backing OPEN!
[Linked Image]
Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: SorcererVictor] #654625
09/08/19 07:40 PM
09/08/19 07:40 PM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 711
_Vic_ Offline
old hand
_Vic_  Offline
old hand

Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 711
Larian, voiced by Swen Vincke repeated in all interviews that the game will use the D&D Tabletop mechanics and combat with some adaptations to translate to a videogame (They usually refuse to compare with previous games but they always relate BG3 to the tabletop D&D)
"With respect to the combat system, this is based on D&D, so we’re using their combat system. We had to make a few tweaks"
Sc: https://www.pcgamesn.com/baldurs-gate-3/larian-developer-interview

Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: _Vic_] #654672
11/08/19 09:14 AM
11/08/19 09:14 AM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 273
SorcererVictor Offline OP
enthusiast
SorcererVictor  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 273
Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem
I can't spend enough words to say how bad Pale Master is in vanilla NWN


I strongly agree. I love nwn, but pale masters are useless. Necromancer specialized wizard or conjurer are a little less useless but still too weak compared to a "generic" wizard. One thing that i miss from 3.5e is the OHK spells. Like Finger of Death, Wail of the Banshee, etc. 5e removed most OHK spells and on pathfinder, they only dealt an massive damage.

Originally Posted by _Vic_
Larian, voiced by Swen Vincke repeated in all interviews that the game will use the D&D Tabletop mechanics and combat with some adaptations to translate to a videogame (They usually refuse to compare with previous games but they always relate BG3 to the tabletop D&D)
"With respect to the combat system, this is based on D&D, so we’re using their combat system. We had to make a few tweaks"
Sc: https://www.pcgamesn.com/baldurs-gate-3/larian-developer-interview


The problem of that interview is that he don't mention what "few twaks" are, because an change on missing will lead to an chain reaction of changes. And that is my biggest concern. Note that i miss a lot on baldur's gate 1/2 and even in turn based games like Temple of Elemental Evil. I had an character with 7 DEX who due difficulties on resting, managed to miss 27 times in the roll.

And in modern games, i miss a lot on pathfinder kingmaker. An summoned army surrounded an enemy who was under the effect of icy prison spell, despite my high level party(16~20), i was missing around 85% of the hits. Note that i was targeting an Witch, not an Demigod Death Knight with +5 plate armor and all types of ungodly buffs to his AC.

[Linked Image]
Here is more screenshots of the encounter https://imgur.com/a/B4oBrm4

To be fair, is not hard to see complains about "complications"
"♥♥♥♥♥ overly complicated game ... why they didnt just make the gameplay similar to divinity original sins ... I enjoyed the game but compare to divinity original sins 2 this game is a massive ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ ..... on the last chapter after i entered the portal I turned everything to the lowest difficulty because I couldn't ♥♥♥♥♥ kill the witch and now even with everything on low I'm stuck because I could not kill the wriggling man .." https://steamcommunity.com/app/640820/discussions/0/1735467426089656980/

--------------------------

But IMO D&D 6e is already easy to grasp enough. An game based on 5e will not receive massive negative reviews because "i can't hit an insect swarm with my axe" because there are no swarm rules. Much less save or be screwed spells/traps/abilities.

Here is an interesting video showing the evolution(and devolution of saves in 4e) in all D&D history. And the origins of the mechanic. Armor Class and Saving Throw are core pillars of D&D. I feat that they are part of "adaptations to translate to video games" considering some comments that i have heard.

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 11/08/19 09:17 AM.
Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: SorcererVictor] #667438
22/05/20 09:05 PM
22/05/20 09:05 PM
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 1
Dr.Agon Offline
stranger
Dr.Agon  Offline
stranger

Joined: May 2020
Posts: 1
I think ,for most fans of D&D, it is imperative to have at least a mode where the original 5e rules are applicable.

Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: SorcererVictor] #667514
27/05/20 10:04 PM
27/05/20 10:04 PM
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 6
catcyborg1 Offline
stranger
catcyborg1  Offline
stranger

Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 6
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
“The very obvious one would be that you tend to miss a lot when you roll the dice, which is fine when you’re playing on the tabletop, but it’s not so cool when you’re playing a video game,” Vincke said. “We had to have solutions for that.” Source https://www.tatech.org/baldurs-gate...es-place-after-dds-descent-into-avernus/


I don't really care too much about all the other conversations going on here, but it sounds to me like Vincke was talking about hidden mechanics that make the game more accessible to players. Consider this example from Celeste: https://youtu.be/yorTG9at90g?t=633
Coyote Time is one of those things that doesn't make sense, but helps players not get frustrated by the playing the game imperfectly. There are other games with other examples, like shooters where the first couple of bullets aimed at the player are guaranteed misses to help them become aware a combat has started, and so on.

I think what Vincke is trying to say is that there will be mechanics that help a player succeed more frequently than statistically true to help them enjoy a game with randomness. Consider the opposite, XCOM, where players miss 90% "gimme" shots because of true randomness. This has led to people being rampantly frustrated by an otherwise awesome game. The "feel" of missing a 90% shot, while statistically possible, is unfun for many people. It looks like BG3 will have help on randomness to build more fun.

I, for one, love this. It simulates a reasonable GM on a computer. It also encourages people not to save scum.

Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: SorcererVictor] #667524
28/05/20 06:14 AM
28/05/20 06:14 AM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 273
SorcererVictor Offline OP
enthusiast
SorcererVictor  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 273
catcyborg1 , i STRONGLY disagree with you. The DM cheating in favor of the party is not good, fun or engaging. D&D was best on 2e when people had like 4~5 backup characters to WHEN(not if) their characters die on low level and one among many manages to become really strong. That was so good...

Did you played ToEE? BG1/BG2? You miss a lot on all of this games. I have a sorcerer with 7 DEX which missed 26 times in a row. The shooters where the first shots on the player always misses only serves to make the game ARTIFICIALLY easier.

You can see missing as frustration but i see rule butchering like sword coast legends as far more frustrating.

Page 5 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Moderated by  Freddo, vometia 

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2