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Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: fireflame] #656491
03/11/19 01:05 AM
03/11/19 01:05 AM
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Raze Offline

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It's still better than the Steam discussion version. evil

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: fireflame] #656562
06/11/19 11:45 PM
06/11/19 11:45 PM
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Having played Divinity OS2, BG2 and the recent Solasta demo, I think turn-based would be best. Real-time multiplayer is tough when you have that many buttons to press and options to choose from - you only need to play Stellaris with multiple friends to experience that issue, with players constantly pausing the game and saying "can we speed the timer up" or "can we please slow it down a lot, I can't keep up". I admit it'd feel a little crummy that RTwP would be missing as a staple of the series, but I honestly think it'd make for a far better multiplayer experience, and I know Larian are pushing for that, here.

It also makes 5e's addition of Reactions work far better - for example, the Shield spell. It's supposed to give you the option to activate it when an attack hits you each round using that one Reaction. You can't let it autotrigger for the player else it'll consume their Spell Slots in no time. The only way to ask the player 'hey, do you want to use this to block this attack that would be hitting you' would be to outright auto-pause the action and have a box pop up that says "DO YOU WANT TO USE SHIELD?". Now imagine having that happen EVERY combat round, EVERY cycle of 5 or 6 seconds seconds. The design of Reactions is inherently incompatible with RTwP, unless you take the approach of having Reactions be instant-cast once-per-round abilities, but that still doesn't solve the issue of how Shield and similar abilities work that proc "when you are hit by an attack".

With all this considered, I feel turn-based is the only suitable way forward. The 5e ruleset and potential for 6 players in multiplayer play make it difficult for me to imagine BG3 using RTwP, as much as I do like that system.

Last edited by KenkuWizard; 06/11/19 11:45 PM.
Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: fireflame] #656658
09/11/19 07:27 PM
09/11/19 07:27 PM
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"So what was one of the biggest changes you made to Divinity: Original Sin during production?

It used to be a real-time game. We made it turn-based. I see that Yakuza has been taking from our book. [laughs]

I asked myself, “What are we doing? We’re making a real-time game because they told us.” Publishers told us that there’s no way you’re going to get your distribution deals if it’s turn-based. It needs to be real-time, blah, blah, blah. We’ve been conditioned into thinking real-time. I was in the shower, I was like, “What are we doing? We’re gonna be competing with Blizzard making an action RPG? We can’t compete with Blizzard, we don’t have the resources. But no one is making turn-based RPGs anymore. So maybe that’s where we should be going.” And that was a really good move."

This was from a just released interview with Larians CEO.

It's not a complete lock the BG3 will be turn based, but it's clear that Larian Studios has a preference for turn based.

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: fireflame] #656696
10/11/19 03:10 PM
10/11/19 03:10 PM
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Oh please!! Of course it is a lock that it will be TB. Larian clearly will not be making a non-TB game anytime in the foreseeable future. If anything, I think these remarks make clear that Swen believes all games should be TB, which is the typical attitude of TB fans.

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: kanisatha] #656719
11/11/19 06:10 AM
11/11/19 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Oh please!! Of course it is a lock that it will be TB. Larian clearly will not be making a non-TB game anytime in the foreseeable future. If anything, I think these remarks make clear that Swen believes all games should be TB, which is the typical attitude of TB fans.


Thanks that is reassuring!

Now to convince the makers of the Witcher series that Witcher 4 needs to be a party turn based as well!

Last edited by Omegaphallic; 11/11/19 06:11 AM.
Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: fireflame] #656772
12/11/19 05:06 PM
12/11/19 05:06 PM
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"Larian is making Baldur's Gate 3 now and Baldur's Gate is such a beloved franchise. How are you going to live up with the fans' expectations?

Swen: I don't think we can live up to the expectations. I think that's impossible. Those expectations are soaring through to the roof. What we're doing is we're making our type of Dungeons & Dragons with a lot of love for what came before and with also putting our own stamp on it.

That's literally the only way we could approach it. We don't want to make a clone of Baldur's Gate 2. We want to make Baldur's Gate 3. It's based on the 5th edition of Dungeons & Dragons so there's a lot of stuff that I think that we're going to add into it. There are also innovations and things you haven't seen before but we'll never know which one the fans are going to like it or not. I hope the fans like it because we put a lot of effort into it."

The qoute above is from the latest interview with the CEO of Larian Studios, if there was any doubt about this game being TB instead of RTwP it should be banished by now.

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: Omegaphallic] #656980
18/11/19 10:51 AM
18/11/19 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Oh please!! Of course it is a lock that it will be TB. Larian clearly will not be making a non-TB game anytime in the foreseeable future. If anything, I think these remarks make clear that Swen believes all games should be TB, which is the typical attitude of TB fans.


Originally Posted by Omegaphallic

The qoute above is from the latest interview with the CEO of Larian Studios, if there was any doubt about this game being TB instead of RTwP it should be banished by now.


Nothing about that quote implicitly suggests which type of combat system the game will have.

I think that you two associate Larian with TB more than they do, themselves. Larian made two TB games, D:OS 1 and 2, and a lot of games before that which didn't use TB.

There are a lot of ways in which Larian's Baldur's Gate is pressed to live up to expectations, not the least of which is the writing - and there was some concern over who is working on the writing for BG3 and their past style of writing. There's also the combat. There's also things like world building, and other things.

Larian's "type of Dungeons & Dragons" isn't about a particular combat system that we know of. Larian hasn't made a D&D game before.

Personally, I don't see how a game could be authentically Baldur's Gate withotu RTwP combat. It's the game that popularized if not created the RTwP RPG genre. To not have RTwP would be like getting the license to make a new Star Wars film and replacing the characters and lore with Star Trek characters and lore. RTwP was literally created for Baldur's Gate, and Baldur's Gate created RTwP. It'd be a betrayal of Baldur's Gate's legacy and a disrespect to its fans to have BG3 not be RTwP - and I'm sure Larian knows it. If they didn't want to make Baldur's Gate, including with the combat it is synonymous with... why would they have requested to make Baldur's Gate?

Last edited by Delicieuxz; 18/11/19 10:55 AM.
Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: Delicieuxz] #656983
18/11/19 01:50 PM
18/11/19 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Delicieuxz
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Oh please!! Of course it is a lock that it will be TB. Larian clearly will not be making a non-TB game anytime in the foreseeable future. If anything, I think these remarks make clear that Swen believes all games should be TB, which is the typical attitude of TB fans.


Originally Posted by Omegaphallic

The qoute above is from the latest interview with the CEO of Larian Studios, if there was any doubt about this game being TB instead of RTwP it should be banished by now.


Nothing about that quote implicitly suggests which type of combat system the game will have.

I think that you two associate Larian with TB more than they do, themselves. Larian made two TB games, D:OS 1 and 2, and a lot of games before that which didn't use TB.

There are a lot of ways in which Larian's Baldur's Gate is pressed to live up to expectations, not the least of which is the writing - and there was some concern over who is working on the writing for BG3 and their past style of writing. There's also the combat. There's also things like world building, and other things.

Larian's "type of Dungeons & Dragons" isn't about a particular combat system that we know of. Larian hasn't made a D&D game before.

Personally, I don't see how a game could be authentically Baldur's Gate withotu RTwP combat. It's the game that popularized if not created the RTwP RPG genre. To not have RTwP would be like getting the license to make a new Star Wars film and replacing the characters and lore with Star Trek characters and lore. RTwP was literally created for Baldur's Gate, and Baldur's Gate created RTwP. It'd be a betrayal of Baldur's Gate's legacy and a disrespect to its fans to have BG3 not be RTwP - and I'm sure Larian knows it. If they didn't want to make Baldur's Gate, including with the combat it is synonymous with... why would they have requested to make Baldur's Gate?


Baldur's Gate is not it's own brand or setting, it's apart of the Forgotten Realms, it's a single city within the Forgotten Realms. It's the same world/brand as games like Neverwinter 1&2, Eye of the Beholder, Al Qadim, Pool of Radiance, Azure Bonds, Pool of Radiance 2, ect...

RTwP is not an inheriant trait of the Forgotten Realms, some FR games are TB, others are real time, others weirder things, ect...

And replacing Star Wars characters with Star Trek characters and lore would be a huge improvement because Star Wars sucks, it's the repetitive epic, it hasn't been good since after Jabba the Hutt died and Princess Laia stopped wearing the gold bikini. It's the Cardassian repetitive epic. Star Trek rules, Star Wars drools.


Last edited by Omegaphallic; 18/11/19 01:55 PM.
Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: fireflame] #657000
19/11/19 03:36 AM
19/11/19 03:36 AM
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Has there been any indication yet that it'll be the type of game where RTWP or TB are even relevant? That's to say, are we sure it's not going to be something more mainstream, in the Witcher sort of mold?

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: Omegaphallic] #657004
19/11/19 05:37 AM
19/11/19 05:37 AM
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Delicieuxz Offline
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Originally Posted by Omegaphallic

Baldur's Gate is not it's own brand or setting, it's apart of the Forgotten Realms, it's a single city within the Forgotten Realms. It's the same world/brand as games like Neverwinter 1&2, Eye of the Beholder, Al Qadim, Pool of Radiance, Azure Bonds, Pool of Radiance 2, ect...

RTwP is not an inheriant trait of the Forgotten Realms, some FR games are TB, others are real time, others weirder things, ect...

And replacing Star Wars characters with Star Trek characters and lore would be a huge improvement because Star Wars sucks, it's the repetitive epic, it hasn't been good since after Jabba the Hutt died and Princess Laia stopped wearing the gold bikini. It's the Cardassian repetitive epic. Star Trek rules, Star Wars drools.



Baldur's Gate is certainly its own brand, just like Neverwinter Nights and Icewind Dale are. They all take place in Forgotten Realms, but that doesn't mean they aren't distinct. Baldur's Gate is THE RTwP game because it created the genre and the RTwP genre came into existence for the purpose of Baldur's Gate. There's nothing else that would be appropriate for it.

Your preference of Star Trek over Star Wars does not challenge the point that to gut an IP's legacy and replace it with another, particularly a competitor's legacy, is to disregard the IP that you're working with. There's no point in working with it in the first place if that's what is going to be done to it.

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: Kaspar] #657012
19/11/19 11:53 AM
19/11/19 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Kaspar
Has there been any indication yet that it'll be the type of game where RTWP or TB are even relevant? That's to say, are we sure it's not going to be something more mainstream, in the Witcher sort of mold?


Nope could be anything as of now. We only know that it will be a party-based RPG so it could be more like Dragon's Dogma although I find that unlikley.

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: Hawke] #657013
19/11/19 12:52 PM
19/11/19 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Hawke
Originally Posted by Kaspar
Has there been any indication yet that it'll be the type of game where RTWP or TB are even relevant? That's to say, are we sure it's not going to be something more mainstream, in the Witcher sort of mold?


Nope could be anything as of now. We only know that it will be a party-based RPG so it could be more like Dragon's Dogma although I find that unlikley.


Thanks. I was just wondering, as it appears to be a larger production with the Google Stadia tie-in, which made me wonder if it's likely to be a more console-first style of game, rather than the more PC-first hardcore RPG we've been used to.

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: Omegaphallic] #657109
22/11/19 11:10 AM
22/11/19 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Omegaphallic
Baldur's Gate is not it's own brand or setting, it's apart of the Forgotten Realms


lol

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: Delicieuxz] #657110
22/11/19 11:12 AM
22/11/19 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Delicieuxz
Nothing about that quote implicitly suggests which type of combat system the game will have.

I think that you two associate Larian with TB more than they do, themselves. Larian made two TB games, D:OS 1 and 2, and a lot of games before that which didn't use TB.

There are a lot of ways in which Larian's Baldur's Gate is pressed to live up to expectations, not the least of which is the writing - and there was some concern over who is working on the writing for BG3 and their past style of writing. There's also the combat. There's also things like world building, and other things.

Larian's "type of Dungeons & Dragons" isn't about a particular combat system that we know of. Larian hasn't made a D&D game before.

Personally, I don't see how a game could be authentically Baldur's Gate withotu RTwP combat. It's the game that popularized if not created the RTwP RPG genre. To not have RTwP would be like getting the license to make a new Star Wars film and replacing the characters and lore with Star Trek characters and lore. RTwP was literally created for Baldur's Gate, and Baldur's Gate created RTwP. It'd be a betrayal of Baldur's Gate's legacy and a disrespect to its fans to have BG3 not be RTwP - and I'm sure Larian knows it. If they didn't want to make Baldur's Gate, including with the combat it is synonymous with... why would they have requested to make Baldur's Gate?


Well said.

Also, I didn't know that about Larian's other games.

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: Artagel] #657222
25/11/19 12:03 AM
25/11/19 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Artagel
Originally Posted by Delicieuxz
Nothing about that quote implicitly suggests which type of combat system the game will have.

I think that you two associate Larian with TB more than they do, themselves. Larian made two TB games, D:OS 1 and 2, and a lot of games before that which didn't use TB.

There are a lot of ways in which Larian's Baldur's Gate is pressed to live up to expectations, not the least of which is the writing - and there was some concern over who is working on the writing for BG3 and their past style of writing. There's also the combat. There's also things like world building, and other things.

Larian's "type of Dungeons & Dragons" isn't about a particular combat system that we know of. Larian hasn't made a D&D game before.

Personally, I don't see how a game could be authentically Baldur's Gate withotu RTwP combat. It's the game that popularized if not created the RTwP RPG genre. To not have RTwP would be like getting the license to make a new Star Wars film and replacing the characters and lore with Star Trek characters and lore. RTwP was literally created for Baldur's Gate, and Baldur's Gate created RTwP. It'd be a betrayal of Baldur's Gate's legacy and a disrespect to its fans to have BG3 not be RTwP - and I'm sure Larian knows it. If they didn't want to make Baldur's Gate, including with the combat it is synonymous with... why would they have requested to make Baldur's Gate?


Well said.

Also, I didn't know that about Larian's other games.


Read the interviews with Sven about making DOS1&2 turn based. The other games weren't turned based because publishers would allow them to, once they published their games, they were able to make them the way they wanted to, turn based. Plus they face less competition in turnbase.

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: Delicieuxz] #658003
30/12/19 02:38 AM
30/12/19 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Delicieuxz

Personally, I don't see how a game could be authentically Baldur's Gate withotu RTwP combat. It's the game that popularized if not created the RTwP RPG genre. To not have RTwP would be like getting the license to make a new Star Wars film and replacing the characters and lore with Star Trek characters and lore. RTwP was literally created for Baldur's Gate, and Baldur's Gate created RTwP. It'd be a betrayal of Baldur's Gate's legacy and a disrespect to its fans to have BG3 not be RTwP - and I'm sure Larian knows it. If they didn't want to make Baldur's Gate, including with the combat it is synonymous with... why would they have requested to make Baldur's Gate?


That is a false analogy. Characters and lore is not combat mechanic and combat mechanic does not define a film or a game.
There are star wars games with FPS, Real time strategy, Shoot 'em up and etc. There are still Star War games with Star War characters, lores and etc.

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: fireflame] #658049
01/01/20 05:12 PM
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I really hope that Larian sticks with Turn-based and doesn't give RTwP any thought. The vision that they have about BG3, to make a genuine table-top experience is not possible with RTwP. This is why WotC even approached them.

And as far as my personal taste is concerned, the few games I played that had RTwP, had frustrating gameplay because of how stupid character AI generally was and how much hand-holding I had to do to ensure they survived. I only really was able to tolerate it in DA:O and enjoy it in DA 2 because of the Tactics system implemented in those two games. DA:I Tactics system was just a much more simplified version of the previous two games and made the combat horrible again. Having to constantly pause to correct basic actions of characters was never a very enjoyable experience and in-fact allowed for the contrary to happen.

Larian made the bold move of going with Turn-based combat at a time when isometric RPGs were coming back from a long pause, and when their peers decided to play safe. They were innovative in the way they implemented certain mechanics which greatly augmented the combat system and dramatically increased the fun factor of TB. With D:OS 2, they were able to polish the system even more(combat verticality).

I would be terribly disappointed if they decide to go the RTwP route. It would be an unnecessary risk and even if well implemented I feel that it might make it a good game but not a memorable one.

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: fireflame] #658133
06/01/20 10:19 AM
06/01/20 10:19 AM
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I hope they respect the saga that made us fans of RPGs. If they cannot be up to the task, better give the license to another studio. I expect that if the license was given to Larian is because they can make a Baldur's Gate sequel, not a different game with the Baldur's Gate logo on it.

Last edited by Frenzy-kun; 06/01/20 10:22 AM.
Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: fireflame] #658138
06/01/20 01:47 PM
06/01/20 01:47 PM
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Deadfire's complete financial failure has probably killed RTWP for good. I expect even Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous will offer turn-based gameplay + their beloved RTWP.

Last edited by Hawke; 06/01/20 01:52 PM.
Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: Hawke] #658139
06/01/20 01:58 PM
06/01/20 01:58 PM
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My thoughts exactly. Even tho PoE II wasn't a bad game, it sold poorly and I think that it is not only due to Obsidian's failed marketing campaign.

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