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Re: New interviews [Re: Sordak] #657256
25/11/19 05:00 PM
25/11/19 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Sordak
oh ithas BROTHELS , clearly not generic european fantasy.
Yes its a kitchen sink, minor side details dont change that.

Also FR has always been silly, it used to be more sillly.
Originally it had portals to real world earth.
Also everyhing about the drow is completley fucking wacky dark comedy.


Kitchen Sink setting is a simplistic insult towards settings by those who have a hard time grasping diverse settings the defy easy single sentence descriptions.

Re: New interviews [Re: Nobody_Special] #657258
25/11/19 05:10 PM
25/11/19 05:10 PM
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Ok.
Its still correct. Forgotten Realms is "diverse" in the same way every kitchen sink fantasy is.
Want generic central european fantasy? Swordcoast
Want Beduins and Arabian nights? Anauroch is right next to it.
Oh yes, remember when Anauroch was a cold desert? Remember wheN Anauroch was actually interresting? Yeah they retconned that. like with most good things in that setting.

Want Skyrim? Go north to targos and play icewind dale. Want Dinosaurs? Go to Chult. Wnat Egypt? Theres Unther, never mind the nonsensical name, its literaly just egypt. Want Oriental adventures? Well we got an entire continent consisting entierly of this premise. Ditto for Mesoamerica.

Ironically the most interresting places in Forgotten Realms of those that are single sentance descriptions. Thay beeing a main example. "Evil wizard ruled country" is abotu as complex as it gets. But its a good plot hook for a good DM.

Forgotten Realms is to DnD settings what 3.5 is to DnD mechanics.
its not deep, its bloated.
Yes you can find the exact statistics of the racial makeup of every given district of waterdeep (with 90% beeing human in almost very one) if you want to.
You can track the exact geneaology of the Zentharim, if you want.
you probably wont tho because those elements arent actually picked up upon.

Thats the strenght of Forgotten realms, its pre chewed and its got a little bit of everything.
its the quintessentialy Kitchen sink.
I cant think of another setting that fits the description of kitchen sink fantasy better than Forgotten realms, maybe Warhammer fantasy or Everquest.

Note, this isnt even a bad thing. I like kitchen sink fantasy, but dont pretne that FR is a great setting just because 3.5 treated it as the poster child and its gotten a lot of Books as a result, also due to WoTC literaly beeing contractually oblidged to release material for it.

if the same was true for Eberron, Dark sun or even Nentir Vale which is actually a realy cool overlooked DnD setting, then they would be just as fleshed out.

Re: New interviews [Re: Nobody_Special] #657261
25/11/19 06:30 PM
25/11/19 06:30 PM
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wrt the silliness thing, I was a bit disappointed that D:OS2 was actually toned down because some people complained so noisily about random stuff like sneaking barrels and shrubs, and the handstand after climbing a ladder, which was taken straight out of Ego Draconis. Fortunately the sneaking barrels survived but the handstands were (unnecessarily IMHO) culled. Although I don't necessarily want a constant laughter track going on (and would probably dislike it) I'm also wary of the stereotype of po-faced roleplaying, an assumption that discouraged me from the genre for too long: because the assumption was wrong. And long may it continue to be.


J'aime le fromage.
Re: New interviews [Re: Nobody_Special] #657262
25/11/19 07:22 PM
25/11/19 07:22 PM
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whats po-faced roleplaying?
but generaly i agree, i like humor in my fantasy. And a bit of whimsy

Re: New interviews [Re: Nobody_Special] #657263
25/11/19 08:06 PM
25/11/19 08:06 PM
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Talking it too seriously: it is an unfortunately persistent stereotype, or at least that's my impression, anyway. I mean speaking as someone who's usually whimsical and silly.


J'aime le fromage.
Re: New interviews [Re: Nobody_Special] #657265
25/11/19 08:28 PM
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well i think it comes from an odd worship of planescape torment
Which is funny since planescape had tons of silly stuff in it, i mean one of your companion is a talking skull.

But i think thats hwere it comes from, the idea that writing most be seirous and thought provoking, it reminds me of sci fi writers trying to get out of "the ghetto" by writing different things or going back to mythology like marion zimmer bradly writing mists of avalon (which was shit, i dont care what isaac asimov says, its shit)

Re: New interviews [Re: Nobody_Special] #657267
25/11/19 09:50 PM
25/11/19 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Sordak
Congratulatin to having bad taste.

<some more typing>

Ok Boomer.


The first and last statements of your post might as well be spoiler tags marked [/not-worth-reading]. So, I'm not going to bother trying to have a conversation with you.

@vometia

It's not that I want RPGs to be "po-faced", and devoid of humour. I like a bit of silly humour injected now and again, like Minsc and Boo, and I think it's generally a good practice to vary the tone, and not stay on one note. When I talk about silliness here, I'm talking about when they look at a Baldur's Gate adventure and decide:

"You know what this needs - hot rods!"

"I like it, Tim! Mad Max in hell! Awesome!"

I'm just saying that, for me, this is not awesome. A bit of well-placed levity is very welcome, but I find that a certain kind of anything-goes wackyness starts to undermine the immersion, at least for me. That's the kind of silliness I'm talking about.

Re: New interviews [Re: vometia] #657268
25/11/19 09:56 PM
25/11/19 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by vometia
Talking it too seriously: it is an unfortunately persistent stereotype, or at least that's my impression, anyway. I mean speaking as someone who's usually whimsical and silly.


I kind of agree, but there is a time and place for it, and it should fit comfortablely into the setting.

Re: New interviews [Re: Sordak] #657269
25/11/19 10:01 PM
25/11/19 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Sordak
Ok.
Its still correct. Forgotten Realms is "diverse" in the same way every kitchen sink fantasy is.
Want generic central european fantasy? Swordcoast
Want Beduins and Arabian nights? Anauroch is right next to it.
Oh yes, remember when Anauroch was a cold desert? Remember wheN Anauroch was actually interresting? Yeah they retconned that. like with most good things in that setting.

Want Skyrim? Go north to targos and play icewind dale. Want Dinosaurs? Go to Chult. Wnat Egypt? Theres Unther, never mind the nonsensical name, its literaly just egypt. Want Oriental adventures? Well we got an entire continent consisting entierly of this premise. Ditto for Mesoamerica.

Ironically the most interresting places in Forgotten Realms of those that are single sentance descriptions. Thay beeing a main example. "Evil wizard ruled country" is abotu as complex as it gets. But its a good plot hook for a good DM.

Forgotten Realms is to DnD settings what 3.5 is to DnD mechanics.
its not deep, its bloated.
Yes you can find the exact statistics of the racial makeup of every given district of waterdeep (with 90% beeing human in almost very one) if you want to.
You can track the exact geneaology of the Zentharim, if you want.
you probably wont tho because those elements arent actually picked up upon.

Thats the strenght of Forgotten realms, its pre chewed and its got a little bit of everything.
its the quintessentialy Kitchen sink.
I cant think of another setting that fits the description of kitchen sink fantasy better than Forgotten realms, maybe Warhammer fantasy or Everquest.

Note, this isnt even a bad thing. I like kitchen sink fantasy, but dont pretne that FR is a great setting just because 3.5 treated it as the poster child and its gotten a lot of Books as a result, also due to WoTC literaly beeing contractually oblidged to release material for it.

if the same was true for Eberron, Dark sun or even Nentir Vale which is actually a realy cool overlooked DnD setting, then they would be just as fleshed out.


Thay isn't just a setting ruled by evil wizards, I mean that is a feature, but their is so much more to Thay then just evil wizards rule hear, such as an interesting history, ruins of ancient Mulhorand, beauty and horror. Your sentance drains it of it's vitality and depth, it's a superficial accessment. It's like saying Canada is a Parliamentary Democracy, which is true, that tells only a tiny bit about Canada, it really doesn't sum it up, it only gives you a single factiod.

Re: New interviews [Re: Nobody_Special] #657270
25/11/19 11:54 PM
25/11/19 11:54 PM
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Kaspar maybe you should have read it to gain some insight then.
The "Hot rods" as you refer to it were made up by WOTC not Larian, and they realy arent in any way contradictory to anyhting in the lore or the tone of it.
The entire point of the Blood War is to be over the top and at the end of the day pointless.
The more you go into the outer planes, the sillier things tend to get. Go look up Modrons.

I personally consider Minsc to be a very specific kind of silly, the kind of silly that doenst take whats going on seriously, and that kind of silly can be poison for the tone.
Which is entierly my point, anyone complaining about the tone of Divinity, in comparison to baldurs gate is either blinded by nostalgia or simply lying.

Omegaphallic:
Yeah i made that comment deliberatley because of your snie comment regarding "single sentance settigns".
Dark sun also isnt just "DnD but mad max"
Dark Sun actually goes into a lot of Detail about the different city states of the sorceror kings, about how society iis shaped, about how surivval works and about why the world became the way it is. its not a gimmick, ts a well fleshed out setting.
The same can be said about Eberron. Its not jus "DnD noir", you can run an entire game in Sharn.
You can run an entire game in an expedition to Xen drik.
You can make an entire campaign just out of the Ring of Storms.
If you sum up Thay, you can say its a country ruled by evil Wizards, its not wrong, its just disingenuous.

Re: New interviews [Re: Sordak] #657272
26/11/19 12:06 AM
26/11/19 12:06 AM
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Kaspar Offline
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Originally Posted by Sordak
Kaspar maybe you should have read it to gain some insight then.


Lol. The opinions of older people are dismissed with "OK Boomer", and we should read your posts to gain "insight"? The condescension is strong with this one. Which is often a crutch, of course, for people that don't know what they're talking about.

Re: New interviews [Re: Nobody_Special] #657275
26/11/19 12:19 AM
26/11/19 12:19 AM
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You sure showed me by not engaging with the content of my post.
Sure proving that i dont know what im talking about.

Re: New interviews [Re: Nobody_Special] #657276
26/11/19 12:28 AM
26/11/19 12:28 AM
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I don't need to prove what is obvious to anyone with half a clue. That would be redundant, and clearly extremely tiresome.

Anyhow, don't let me stop you. As you were.

Re: New interviews [Re: Kaspar] #657277
26/11/19 12:46 AM
26/11/19 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Kaspar
I don't need to prove what is obvious to anyone with half a clue. That would be redundant, and clearly extremely tiresome.

Anyhow, don't let me stop you. As you were.


It wasn't obvious to me. How ever it is quite obvious, and a common curtesy to provide proof or hard material to demonstrate or counter something else. Throwing empty blank statements out there and presenting it as fact is generally not a very effective debating tactic.

Let's keep it cool, guys. If you can't provide something positive, or different perspective/opinion that you can back up in a presentable manner for others to understand, then don't post at all.

Re: New interviews [Re: Nobody_Special] #657278
26/11/19 12:55 AM
26/11/19 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by The Composer
It wasn't obvious to me. How ever it is quite obvious, and a common curtesy to provide proof or hard material to demonstrate or counter something else. Throwing empty blank statements out there and presenting it as fact is generally not a very effective debating tactic.

Let's keep it cool, guys. If you can't provide something positive, or different perspective/opinion that you can back up in a presentable manner for others to understand, then don't post at all.


My point, which you seem to have missed, is that if someone is dismissing others with comments like, "Congratulations on having bad taste. I don't care" and "OK Boomer", and claiming that their own comments ought to be read for "insight", then we are already some way beyond the realms of common courtesy, and constructive conversation. I choose simply to point this out, rather than enter an interminable debate with such an attitude.

Last edited by Kaspar; 26/11/19 12:56 AM.
Re: New interviews [Re: Sordak] #657279
26/11/19 01:02 AM
26/11/19 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Sordak
Congratulatin to having bad taste.

I dont care.
Id take Divinity over Forgotten Realms any day.
And you know what? I dont understand you, or nostalgia goggled people in general, attributing adjectives like "maturity" or "somberness" to things like Baludrs Gate or Forogtten Realms.

Holy moly my dude, FR is one of the silliest settings out there.
I dont know how many times i need to quote GO FOR THE EYES BOO before you start remembering the things that actually happened in baldurs gate.

And Forgotten Realms, come on, its the setting home to a race so evil, their society would immediatly collapse if it wasnt for their god literaly playing Sims with them.
We talk about a setting where a group of elven women have orgasms from their babies murdering each other in their wombs.
We talk about a setting in which the medieval stasis is explained by literal wizard terrorists murdering inventors, and beeing portrayed as good guys.
We talk about a settig in which a wizard is canonically fucking the goddess of magic for reasons.
Where theres a gorillion retcons only to explain the inane shenanigans of the writers

Im too lazy to list all the silly things in Forgotten Realms, but theres a lot of it, and its not a very mature setting, its a fantasy kitchen sink written by a fetishistic hippie.
Not saying thats a bad thing.
but your criticism of divinity is a major case of OLD THING GOOD, NEW THING BAD
To which i canonly reply: Ok Boomer.


I remember the humour BG1&2, never said the Forgotten Realms didn't have humour so I don't know where you got that. As for my taste, I've already proven its better then yours, because at least I get the nuances of the Forgotten Realms, which clearly escapes you.

Last edited by Omegaphallic; 26/11/19 01:04 AM.
Re: New interviews [Re: Kaspar] #657281
26/11/19 01:55 AM
26/11/19 01:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Kaspar
Originally Posted by The Composer
It wasn't obvious to me. How ever it is quite obvious, and a common curtesy to provide proof or hard material to demonstrate or counter something else. Throwing empty blank statements out there and presenting it as fact is generally not a very effective debating tactic.

Let's keep it cool, guys. If you can't provide something positive, or different perspective/opinion that you can back up in a presentable manner for others to understand, then don't post at all.


My point, which you seem to have missed, is that if someone is dismissing others with comments like, "Congratulations on having bad taste. I don't care" and "OK Boomer", and claiming that their own comments ought to be read for "insight", then we are already some way beyond the realms of common courtesy, and constructive conversation. I choose simply to point this out, rather than enter an interminable debate with such an attitude.


Yeah, I can see and get alongside with that. It also coincides with what I meant to edit in with a couple of thoughts that struck me during my shower as well.

I wanted to add with that, I often find it's easy to forget that having opinions is fine. It usually derails when someone either forgets or misunderstands and is led into a position where suddenly, having a different opinion is suddenly a problem. It's like somehow, the idea that we don't all need to have identical opinions or preferences is forgotten. What I usually mean is that in discussions about opinions and what something is, just saying "Something was ridiculous, so your opinion is invalid" doesn't go far, because 'ridiculous' is relative. The threshold of 'ridiculous' for me and for you are certainly different. Therefore, adding some tangible, hard examples to refer to specifics help carry an argument, so that you have something to work with.

I could for example claim that threads about ideas/opinions about something is ridiculous by nature. However, that's not a fact just because that's my opinion, and nor is it ridiculous. I just happen to view them that way. However, say that I want to present that opinion in a more productive way, I could contribute some reasons why, specific references to why I feel that way. I could argue that we're not the developers, so our ideas and preferences doesn't matter in regards to the outcome. I could argue that blind speculation is a waste of time, so for example debating whether or not RTWP or TB is best is moot, because we both don't know what it'll be yet, and people have different opinions on that as well. Then, someone else could argue back with our speculations could help the developers know what we want, or give them some ideas. Or, someone could argue that speculation and sharing opinions is simply fun and it's interesting to hear what other people think. I'd say all four points are perfectly valid, but it's highly unlikely everyone is gonna agree with all four of them. My point is that... That's fine.

So the TL;DR is that I don't understand why people have a need to win other people over to their opinion or preference. A discussion becomes so much more productive, and less toxic when everyone recognizes this. That doesn't mean you can't disagree with them. They could sometimes be factually dead wrong. Or perhaps you recognize that someone has misunderstood something, which has misled their preference/opinion towards something that does themselves a disservice. At this point, some people decide to present their thoughts in a constructive manner, and back up their view with examples and references to accurate sources, whilst others resort to lashing out in various less productive ways, because they've basically 'been beat' and doesn't recognize any other way to respond.

In the end of the day, let's try to be constructive smile

Last edited by The Composer; 26/11/19 02:00 AM.
Re: New interviews [Re: Nobody_Special] #657282
26/11/19 02:31 AM
26/11/19 02:31 AM
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Yes, I wouldn't disagree with any of that. That's what I was getting at, really - if one is going to take a high-handed, dismissive, and disrespectful attitude, and to imagine that one's own subjective opinions represent "insight", while others' opinions are "bad taste", well, then we're going to have problems. And if I turn it around, perhaps I can draw attention to the problem.

My criticism about what I consider "silly" is of course my own opinion, and I don't expect to convert the disbelievers. I do think it's fine to discuss these things in the context of a game one is interested in, and the studio might be interested to know which way their audience leans on these things.

My view about D&D, is that the lore technically connects all the campaign settings, and the real world itself. So, in a sense, it's impossible for anything to be considered lore-unfriendly. But, I think that misses the point. We're talking here about the Baldur's Gate games, which were very much set in the fairly grounded version of Forgotten Realms - a pseudo medieval Europe with, well, dungeons and dragons. I'd say that was also fairly representative of the Forgotten Realms campaigns of that era, and it's the style that I find very immersive. The possibilities for all sorts of wackiness were there, but the point is they weren't indulged too much in those games. I find, that in the current era, there is more of tendency to embrace all the outlandish possibilities more enthusiastically.

In theory, we could have a lore-compliant Baldur's Gate game that pops over to another dimension for some phaser gun battles, then moves to contemporary America for a spot of NASCAR racing and Monster Energy drinks. Some might find that that highly imaginative and fun, but I would not enjoy that at all. So the question isn't about what *could* be possible in the DnD universe, but which version of all the possibilities we will actually get.

Re: New interviews [Re: Kaspar] #657284
26/11/19 03:08 AM
26/11/19 03:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Kaspar
It's not that I want RPGs to be "po-faced", and devoid of humour. I like a bit of silly humour injected now and again, like Minsc and Boo, and I think it's generally a good practice to vary the tone, and not stay on one note. When I talk about silliness here, I'm talking about when they look at a Baldur's Gate adventure and decide:

"You know what this needs - hot rods!"

"I like it, Tim! Mad Max in hell! Awesome!"

I'm just saying that, for me, this is not awesome. A bit of well-placed levity is very welcome, but I find that a certain kind of anything-goes wackyness starts to undermine the immersion, at least for me. That's the kind of silliness I'm talking about.

Hmm, the idea of a visit by the Saints Row posse certainly has potential! But yeah; or rather no., to that idea I mean.

Also "no" to "okay Boomer". Let's not encourage that debating style.


J'aime le fromage.
Re: New interviews [Re: Kaspar] #657286
26/11/19 05:36 AM
26/11/19 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Kaspar
if one is going to take a high-handed, dismissive, and disrespectful attitude, and to imagine that one's own subjective opinions represent "insight", while others' opinions are "bad taste", well, then we're going to have problems.

I don't think that is how it was intended.
I once told someone in a store he had excellent taste in pens; he correctly interpreted that to mean I had the same brand/style pen, rather than I was actually passing judgement on his taste. I've also seen and used 'good taste' when referring to someone happening to wear the same type of shirt/hat/whatever as someone else.
It is no more dismissive or disrespectful than than calling someone a heathen if they cook steak well done. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but sometimes those opinions are just 'wrong'.
For some reason there are also people have very strong opinions about pineapple on pizza. It is fine either way, and you're silly to make judgements about someone just because they like / don't like the opposite. Unless you like steak well done; then you're definitely a heathen.

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