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Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. #661620
05/03/20 03:55 PM
05/03/20 03:55 PM
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SorcererVictor Online content OP
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Come on. We already have 5451684153498416987461*10²³ games copying the magic from WoW. We already have sword coast legends and DDO. We don't need another game with this boring mechanic that makes no sense.

According to a user on rpg codex "Fire bolt ability seemed like it was on some sort of timer in the demo. He used it before combat and then couldn’t use it when he needed it." https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.p...etric-folks.127856/page-477#post-6577730

And that is AWFUL. D&D should use a vancian magic system and spell slots. If i wanna spend all day casting eldricht blast or if i wanna use all of my cantrips, it should be my choice. Not the game artificially forcing me into a boring rotation. All masterpiece CRPG's has no cooldowns. Baldur's Gate 1/2? No cooldowns. NWN1/2? No cooldowns. Hell, even mmos, Ultima Online has no cooldowns and is by far the best MMO. Spells has a chance of failure impact karma, require reagents but has no artificial limitations. Runescape tried to copy the cooldown based system from wow and now everyone plays Old School Runescape who has no CDs.

I confess that i after declarations like "missing not work" and "spell slots are not intuitive" had no hope for BG3. But wishlisted the game when i saw the gameplay and all things that only a mage hand can do BUT if there are cooldowns or endless number inflation based progression, i will never purchase.

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. [Re: SorcererVictor] #661621
05/03/20 03:59 PM
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Firebolt is a cantrip and be used every round.

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. [Re: SorcererVictor] #661631
05/03/20 04:46 PM
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I believe the weapon skills they've added in, pin down for example can't be used every round, but spells seem to work as they would in pen and paper with spell slots.

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. [Re: SorcererVictor] #661635
05/03/20 05:05 PM
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Looking at the demo he couldn't use firebolt because he had just cast grease that turn. Not because he cast firebolt before the battle.
He said something that sounded like it was because he used it before battle, but firebolt wasn't greyed out until after he cast grease; and that makes much more sense. So I think he just didn't say the correct thing.

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. [Re: Schuesseled] #661646
05/03/20 05:47 PM
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SorcererVictor Online content OP
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Originally Posted by Schuesseled
I believe the weapon skills they've added in, pin down for example can't be used every round, but spells seem to work as they would in pen and paper with spell slots.


Less awful but the ideal would be no CDs...

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. [Re: SorcererVictor] #661652
05/03/20 06:01 PM
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Normally, I would be entirely against cooldowns. But in D&D 5e, there are MANY abilities that are balanced by the fact that they are recovered not by long rests (sleeping for 8+ hours), but by short rests (1 hour).

I would not be against having short rest abilities (including the Warlock spell slots) recover after every combat (either automatically or with say a 1-5 minute real-time cooldown.

The Warlock in particular is balance around the whole short rest mechanic; Warlocks have almost NO spell slots, but make it up for being able to recover ALL their spell slots with a short rest. If they throw out the short rest as a mechanic, and force Warlock to only regain their spell slots with a long rest, it will severely harm the class.

And Warlock is not alone. There are many classes that have features that rely upon the short rest mechanic.

So if they get rid of the short rest mechanic and don't implement a cool down system of some sort, it will result in the 5 minute adventuring day; which in my opinion is worse than a cool down mechanic.

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. [Re: AnonySimon] #661725
05/03/20 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by AnonySimon
Normally, I would be entirely against cooldowns. But in D&D 5e, there are MANY abilities that are balanced by the fact that they are recovered not by long rests (sleeping for 8+ hours), but by short rests (1 hour).

I would not be against having short rest abilities (including the Warlock spell slots) recover after every combat (either automatically or with say a 1-5 minute real-time cooldown.

The Warlock in particular is balance around the whole short rest mechanic; Warlocks have almost NO spell slots, but make it up for being able to recover ALL their spell slots with a short rest. If they throw out the short rest as a mechanic, and force Warlock to only regain their spell slots with a long rest, it will severely harm the class.

And Warlock is not alone. There are many classes that have features that rely upon the short rest mechanic.

So if they get rid of the short rest mechanic and don't implement a cool down system of some sort, it will result in the 5 minute adventuring day; which in my opinion is worse than a cool down mechanic.



Do anything BUT cooldown; Put reagents, limits to 3 short rests in between a long rest or something similar but cooldowns are the WORST, most immersion breaking mechanic and should't exist.

PS : WLKs only regain spells up to circle 5 in a short rest.

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. [Re: AnonySimon] #661729
05/03/20 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by AnonySimon


I would not be against having short rest abilities (including the Warlock spell slots) recover after every combat (either automatically or with say a 1-5 minute real-time cooldown.


If those were my choices, I would much prefer they came back after each fight. Standing around for 5 minutes in a computer games seems really annoying.
Although, if they allow us to cheese combat like in DOS2, then it becomes a bit pointless, since you could just go and kill one enemy, run away, go back into the fight and kill another etc etc.
Full Warlock cheese party for run.

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. [Re: SorcererVictor] #661735
05/03/20 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by AnonySimon
Normally, I would be entirely against cooldowns. But in D&D 5e, there are MANY abilities that are balanced by the fact that they are recovered not by long rests (sleeping for 8+ hours), but by short rests (1 hour).

I would not be against having short rest abilities (including the Warlock spell slots) recover after every combat (either automatically or with say a 1-5 minute real-time cooldown.

The Warlock in particular is balance around the whole short rest mechanic; Warlocks have almost NO spell slots, but make it up for being able to recover ALL their spell slots with a short rest. If they throw out the short rest as a mechanic, and force Warlock to only regain their spell slots with a long rest, it will severely harm the class.

And Warlock is not alone. There are many classes that have features that rely upon the short rest mechanic.

So if they get rid of the short rest mechanic and don't implement a cool down system of some sort, it will result in the 5 minute adventuring day; which in my opinion is worse than a cool down mechanic.



Do anything BUT cooldown; Put reagents, limits to 3 short rests in between a long rest or something similar but cooldowns are the WORST, most immersion breaking mechanic and should't exist.

PS : WLKs only regain spells up to circle 5 in a short rest.


If you are talking about the Warlock's Mystic Arcanum feature, those DO NOT use spell slots. The Warlock ONLY has spell slots upto 5th level spells, which it explicitly states that they "regain all expended spell slots when you finish a short or long rest" according to the Player's Handbook, pg 107.

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. [Re: SorcererVictor] #661746
05/03/20 08:40 PM
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Just keep it to the core rules, spell per day. All will be well.

-Doom

Last edited by Doomlord; 05/03/20 08:40 PM.

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Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. [Re: Doomlord] #661755
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Originally Posted by Doomlord
Just keep it to the core rules, spell per day. All will be well.

-Doom


The point is that core rules state that Warlocks replenish spell slots on short rest, not "per day." And as others have stated, there are other class specific abilities that are balanced around the short rest mechanic.

SorcererVictor offered the best solution imo. Let the party short rest a limited amount of times between long rests. This seems like an elegant solution to me. There could be a risk for random encounters during short rests to make it a bit riskier.

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. [Re: SorcererVictor] #661761
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They've confirmed in an article that there is not going to be a short rest feature. In the gameplay at one moment you can see gale has the arcane recovery ability on his toolbar which can be used outside of combat to restore spells and all characters have a regain health ability., presumably these have limited uses between rests (long).

It would seem likely the warlock has something similar to restore his spells, presumably usually more often than arcane recovery.

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. [Re: SorcererVictor] #661764
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Towards the end of the gameplay reveal. The third or fourth question asked was about regaining spells. Swen said after a long rest.

@1:42:47


Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. [Re: SorcererVictor] #661768
05/03/20 09:26 PM
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Aside for the fact that I find an aprioristic hate for cooldowns a bit ridiculous in principle (there's nothing about a "cooldown-based" system that is inherently worse), I'm not sure why this is even a question when it's D&D we are talking about.
D&D doesn't use cooldowns. It has item charges and limited numbers of uses per day.

Last edited by Tuco; 05/03/20 09:27 PM.
Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. [Re: Tuco] #661804
05/03/20 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Tuco
Aside for the fact that I find an aprioristic hate for cooldowns a bit ridiculous in principle (there's nothing about a "cooldown-based" system that is inherently worse), I'm not sure why this is even a question when it's D&D we are talking about.
D&D doesn't use cooldowns. It has item charges and limited numbers of uses per day.


The problems with cooldowns :
1 - MAkes no sense. Except in few ocasions. Red Orchestra machine guns overheating and you needing to wait cooldown or change the barrel is the unique exception
2 - They homogenize the combat into the same rotation spam
3 - They make you focus more in your action bar and less in the action. You are trying to use the max DPS rotation instead of figuring out what spells are best for the situation
4 - They break my immersion
5 - People only accept this BS on RPG's. The new contra added CDs and everyone hates it(with reason)
6 - They slow down the gameplay
7 - They make character progression less impactful.

I don't see a single vantage of this mechanic.

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. [Re: SorcererVictor] #661815
05/03/20 11:28 PM
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I dont need CD,s in BG III but saying there is no point to them in General
is ridicolus. CD has obvious advantages such like beeing forced
to use a clever variation of Spells and not just bursting Everything
with spamming the highest dps Spell. They also punish you for
beeing careless when it comes to the use of Crowd Control

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. [Re: SorcererVictor] #661817
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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Tuco
Aside for the fact that I find an aprioristic hate for cooldowns a bit ridiculous in principle (there's nothing about a "cooldown-based" system that is inherently worse), I'm not sure why this is even a question when it's D&D we are talking about.
D&D doesn't use cooldowns. It has item charges and limited numbers of uses per day.


The problems with cooldowns :
1 - MAkes no sense. Except in few ocasions. Red Orchestra machine guns overheating and you needing to wait cooldown or change the barrel is the unique exception
2 - They homogenize the combat into the same rotation spam
3 - They make you focus more in your action bar and less in the action. You are trying to use the max DPS rotation instead of figuring out what spells are best for the situation
4 - They break my immersion
5 - People only accept this BS on RPG's. The new contra added CDs and everyone hates it(with reason)
6 - They slow down the gameplay
7 - They make character progression less impactful.

I don't see a single vantage of this mechanic.

I find the almost entirety of your list a bunch of completely made-up, arbitrary and baseless claims,
Still, it doesn't really matter in the end, because D&D is simply not a cooldown-based system, so this puts an end to any irrational concern about it.

Last edited by Tuco; 05/03/20 11:44 PM.
Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. [Re: Tuco] #661838
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Originally Posted by Maldurin
(...)
with spamming the highest dps Spell. They also punish you for (...)l


Did you played a SINGLE game without cooldowns? Not necessarily old school RPG's. On Dragon's Dogma, most MAgick Bow skills are situational. ricochet hunter for eg can be deadly on CQB vs living armor but useless in a open field VS a thunder dragon.


Originally Posted by Tuco
(...)
I find the almost entirety of your list a bunch of completely made-up, arbitrary and baseless claims,
Still, it doesn't really matter in the end, because D&D is simply not a cooldown-based system, so this puts an end to any irrational concern about it.


Are not baseless claims. All games praised by immersion like Gothic 1/2 has no CDs, all games praised by the combat like Dark Souls and Dragon's Dogma has no CDs. And despite D&D not having CDs, some D&D adaptaions like Dungeons & Dragons Online and Sword Coast LEgends has it. Only RPG games accept this BS mechanic. Contra: Rogue Corps flopped and one reason is the cooldowns on weapons.

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. [Re: SorcererVictor] #661841
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I think cool downs in some game are fine, and Im ok with that. With that being said however, if its a Dungeons and Dragons game , excluding ( Neverwinter online and DDO ) they should always keep it faithful to the core rules, Like Bg 1 & 2 Neverwinter nights 1 & 2.

Those were faithful as far as I could tell. So if its natural abilities, spells per days whatever it is , keep it true to the PH , DM guide and I think it will be ok.

-Doom

Last edited by Doomlord; 06/03/20 03:34 AM.

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Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. [Re: Doomlord] #661851
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SorcererVictor Online content OP
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Originally Posted by Doomlord
I think cool downs in some game are fine, and Im ok with that. With that said however, if its a Dungeons and Dragons game , excluding ( Neverwinter online and DDO ) that should always keep it faithful to the core rules, Like Bg 1 & 2 Neverwinter nights 1 & 2.

Those were faithful as far as I could tell. So if its natural abilities, spells per days what ever it is , keep it true to the PH , DM guide and I think will be ok.

-Doom


Except in the case of a machine gun overheating, i can't find a single case where CDs makes any sense.

PS : DDO, SCL and Neverwinter mmo aren't good games exactly because they felt more like a wow clone than a D&D adaptation...

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