Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 6 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6
Re: Getting rid of DOS gimmicks/features [Re: Sordak] #664573
20/03/20 07:49 PM
20/03/20 07:49 PM
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 62
Eton, Berkshire, EU
etonbears Offline
journeyman
etonbears  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 62
Eton, Berkshire, EU
Originally Posted by Sordak


on artstyle:
I think its unfair to say BG1 and 2 didnt have an artstyle. Artstyle is distinct from subject matter. hence why i said Larians artstyle.
Larian might be depicting the sword coast, so the buildings will look relativeley high medieval european and so will the enviroments (i for one would of course argument that ti was more high fatnasy britain, since central europe tends to actually look a bit more rugged, but maybe im just used to the alps)

However, the way these things are depicted is through the artstyle of Larian, it focuses on aspects of that time period and of the lore that larian favors.
Ive brought the example before, but Larian loves Statues.
Their games are full of them, and characters will ofthen evoke Greek statues (maxos and the OCs from OS1 come to mind)
So when they do a Forgotten Realms temple, theyll include a large statue of a Godess.

They also have a certain... height to which they have buildings scale. Its subtle details but you notice them beeing there


Sure, clearly there has to be some degree of artistic consistency across a project, and for smaller developers, the whole studio. When that consistency fails, the result is often not pretty.
In Larian's case, Joachim Vleminckx seems to be the link across DOS1/2 and BG3. He probably likes statues smile I do too, for that matter.

There are also some aspects determined by technology. Height is one of those things particularly sensitive to the camera solutions you have, which often carry over from project to project.
There may even be some aspects sensitive to the content creation tools used, but that is probably less likely.

I obviously don't know their output as well as you, so I don't necessarily see all the similarities. But regardless, I like the BG3 environment, as much as I have seen, even if it's slightly strange to see 4000 year old Babylonian mud-brick city walls next to renaissance Italian architecture.

Re: Getting rid of DOS gimmicks/features [Re: kyrthorsen] #664999
26/03/20 08:44 AM
26/03/20 08:44 AM
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 204
Belgium
Maximuuus Offline
enthusiast
Maximuuus  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 204
Belgium
2 things I notice in DoS 2 while starting a new game on switch I wouldn't like to sée in a BG game :

- the totally unrealistic amount of blood each time someone is killed. This would be ridiculous in a BG game.

- the incredible numbers of totally useless "decorative" items you can pick. It slows the game for nothing.

I'd like a more immersive and realistic game but if it's usefull for the gameplay...

With only those 2 elements we can imagind Larian don't really know how to work about immersion on their game.
The first one is totally arcady, the second one is way too realist for such a game and is bad for gameplay (especially on console I guess)

Could talk about inventory management and "understanding" of items due to the second point but it's something else.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 26/03/20 08:47 AM.
Re: Getting rid of DOS gimmicks/features [Re: kyrthorsen] #665002
26/03/20 10:12 AM
26/03/20 10:12 AM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 12
Thrall Offline
stranger
Thrall  Offline
stranger

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 12
Agreed on no. 4 too many pickupable useless items in DOS. Nothing wrong with the others.

Re: Getting rid of DOS gimmicks/features [Re: Maximuuus] #665005
26/03/20 11:07 AM
26/03/20 11:07 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 551
right behind you
Madscientist Offline

addict
Madscientist  Offline

addict

Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 551
right behind you
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
2 things I notice in DoS 2 while starting a new game on switch I wouldn't like to sée in a BG game :

- the totally unrealistic amount of blood each time someone is killed. This would be ridiculous in a BG game.

- the incredible numbers of totally useless "decorative" items you can pick. It slows the game for nothing.

I'd like a more immersive and realistic game but if it's usefull for the gameplay...

With only those 2 elements we can imagind Larian don't really know how to work about immersion on their game.
The first one is totally arcady, the second one is way too realist for such a game and is bad for gameplay (especially on console I guess)

Could talk about inventory management and "understanding" of items due to the second point but it's something else.


I did not read everything in this thread so far but:

- Total agreement about the huge amount of "decorative" items. It slows down the game a lot. I am a completeonist and I feel bad when I leave stuff behind and I think I spend more than half of my time picking up random stuff. I was one of the reasons why I never finished the game, because I was slow as hell and went to a shop very often. The fact that shops got new random items every hour made it even worse.
Item wise, BG1+2 and PoE1+2 were enough, no need to be able to pick up everything, especially when 99% of it is useless.

- The amount of blood was not my problem. It was more the fact that most enemies bleed cursed blood, fire or acid.

- The environmental effects were too much for me.
Some form of interaction is good. I liked the BG3 video were you can push enemies or throw objects. Exploding barrels, burning oil or electric water make also sense to some degree.
But D:OS2 went way too far for my taste, when the whole map was filled with crazy effects (necrofire, electric clouds, . . .) in almost every battle.
D:OS1 was still OK ( I tried to focus on stuff that hits targets, not mess up the environment too much), but D:OS2 went too far.
A normal arrow should just deal some damage, not make the enemy bleed fire which ignites half of the screen.

- I hated the inflating numbers in D:OS.
Fortuanatly they have confirmed that they use DnD items, so no levels on items and relatively small numbers.


groovy Prof. Dr. Dr. Mad S. Tist groovy

World leading expert of artificial stupidity.
Because there are too many people who work on artificial intelligence already :hihi:
Re: Getting rid of DOS gimmicks/features [Re: Madscientist] #665008
26/03/20 12:02 PM
26/03/20 12:02 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 42
X
Xvim Offline
apprentice
Xvim  Offline
apprentice
X

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 42
Originally Posted by Madscientist
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
2 things I notice in DoS 2 while starting a new game on switch I wouldn't like to sée in a BG game :

- the totally unrealistic amount of blood each time someone is killed. This would be ridiculous in a BG game.

- the incredible numbers of totally useless "decorative" items you can pick. It slows the game for nothing.

I'd like a more immersive and realistic game but if it's usefull for the gameplay...

With only those 2 elements we can imagind Larian don't really know how to work about immersion on their game.
The first one is totally arcady, the second one is way too realist for such a game and is bad for gameplay (especially on console I guess)

Could talk about inventory management and "understanding" of items due to the second point but it's something else.


I did not read everything in this thread so far but:

- Total agreement about the huge amount of "decorative" items. It slows down the game a lot. I am a completeonist and I feel bad when I leave stuff behind and I think I spend more than half of my time picking up random stuff. I was one of the reasons why I never finished the game, because I was slow as hell and went to a shop very often. The fact that shops got new random items every hour made it even worse.
Item wise, BG1+2 and PoE1+2 were enough, no need to be able to pick up everything, especially when 99% of it is useless.

- The amount of blood was not my problem. It was more the fact that most enemies bleed cursed blood, fire or acid.

- The environmental effects were too much for me.
Some form of interaction is good. I liked the BG3 video were you can push enemies or throw objects. Exploding barrels, burning oil or electric water make also sense to some degree.
But D:OS2 went way too far for my taste, when the whole map was filled with crazy effects (necrofire, electric clouds, . . .) in almost every battle.
D:OS1 was still OK ( I tried to focus on stuff that hits targets, not mess up the environment too much), but D:OS2 went too far.
A normal arrow should just deal some damage, not make the enemy bleed fire which ignites half of the screen.

- I hated the inflating numbers in D:OS.
Fortuanatly they have confirmed that they use DnD items, so no levels on items and relatively small numbers.


They have stated that there will be fewer surface interactions, but still having the environment have effects. Setting fire to a Grease or Web spell is much more reasonable than every Firebolt causing a fire surface. It remains to be seen just how reduced the surfaces are while retaining environmental interaction.

As for the number of items, I can see that as it does make the 'show items' button less useful. I don't necessarily have a problem with them being there, but would prefer a toggle to allow the decorative items (at least those with little to no value) to be hidden when looking for things.

Re: Getting rid of DOS gimmicks/features [Re: kyrthorsen] #665011
26/03/20 01:35 PM
26/03/20 01:35 PM
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 204
Belgium
Maximuuus Offline
enthusiast
Maximuuus  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 204
Belgium
The show items button is always usefull, even in BG1&2 where you nearly don't have any useless items.

The other problem with so much items is that you don't know what is usefull for a reason or another or useless and value means nothing.

At least what they could do if they want us to be able to pick an empty cup is just color the items name appearing when you push the "show items button"...
Grey for useless, green for craft, red for equipements,.... But this would be absolutely awfull and unreadable...

The only answer about that is not to spend their time in useless elements. That is not valuable for the game... Neither for immersion, nor for gameplay.
(Oh wait, maybe we'll be able to throw paintings, cups or shells in the head of ennemies to damage them... such as boots.......)

Last edited by Maximuuus; 26/03/20 01:36 PM.
Re: Getting rid of DOS gimmicks/features [Re: kyrthorsen] #665012
26/03/20 01:58 PM
26/03/20 01:58 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 551
right behind you
Madscientist Offline

addict
Madscientist  Offline

addict

Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 551
right behind you
Well, throwing random items at enemies looks cool when you see it once in a video.
It makes no sense to do it at all under normal conditions.
Every char should is profient with at least one type of ranged weapon. Every char should also carry some kind of ranged weapon and ammo even if he is not a specialized archer, just like every char should have a melee weapon even if he is not an expert for melee combat. Chars who are not archers are usually bad at throwing things anyway.
So in 99% of all cases its better to attack with a weapon than throwing random stuff.

It can make sense to sneak above enemies and drop heavy stuff on their head, but thats something different than throwing boots or mugs.


groovy Prof. Dr. Dr. Mad S. Tist groovy

World leading expert of artificial stupidity.
Because there are too many people who work on artificial intelligence already :hihi:
Re: Getting rid of DOS gimmicks/features [Re: Madscientist] #665013
26/03/20 02:12 PM
26/03/20 02:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 42
X
Xvim Offline
apprentice
Xvim  Offline
apprentice
X

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 42
Originally Posted by Madscientist
Well, throwing random items at enemies looks cool when you see it once in a video.
It makes no sense to do it at all under normal conditions.
Every char should is profient with at least one type of ranged weapon. Every char should also carry some kind of ranged weapon and ammo even if he is not a specialized archer, just like every char should have a melee weapon even if he is not an expert for melee combat. Chars who are not archers are usually bad at throwing things anyway.
So in 99% of all cases its better to attack with a weapon than throwing random stuff.

It can make sense to sneak above enemies and drop heavy stuff on their head, but thats something different than throwing boots or mugs.

Thrown attacks are based off of Strength in 5e unless it is a Finesse weapon (then you can choose Strength of Dexterity), so generally throwing a weapon is better as a melee character.

Re: Getting rid of DOS gimmicks/features [Re: Madscientist] #665015
26/03/20 02:33 PM
26/03/20 02:33 PM
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 204
Belgium
Maximuuus Offline
enthusiast
Maximuuus  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 204
Belgium
Originally Posted by Madscientist
Well, throwing random items at enemies looks cool when you see it once in a video.
It makes no sense to do it at all under normal conditions.
Every char should is profient with at least one type of ranged weapon. Every char should also carry some kind of ranged weapon and ammo even if he is not a specialized archer, just like every char should have a melee weapon even if he is not an expert for melee combat. Chars who are not archers are usually bad at throwing things anyway.
So in 99% of all cases its better to attack with a weapon than throwing random stuff.

It can make sense to sneak above enemies and drop heavy stuff on their head, but thats something different than throwing boots or mugs.


I totally agree with all that.
My last sentence was ironic, I really find ridiculous that we'll be able to throw boots (or anything that's not a weapon) from our inventory to damage ennemies smile

If my life now is 25 HP and if I'm dead at 0, leather boots even on my head is 0 damage.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 26/03/20 03:30 PM.
Re: Getting rid of DOS gimmicks/features [Re: kyrthorsen] #665027
26/03/20 06:26 PM
26/03/20 06:26 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 848
S
Sordak Offline
old hand
Sordak  Offline
old hand
S

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 848
>not wanting more items you can pick up
at some point i cant even tell if you people are beeing serious or not.
Just dont pick up the junk holy crap

also improvised weapon should be 1d4+strmod and an improvized weapon is pretty much whatever.
also id rather not get steel toed boots thrown at my head.

but youll find something to compalin about everywhere

WHAAA THIS GAME HAS TOO MANY FEATURES AND TOO MUCH CONTENT NOOOOOOOOOOO!

Last edited by Sordak; 26/03/20 06:28 PM.
Re: Getting rid of DOS gimmicks/features [Re: kyrthorsen] #665030
26/03/20 07:12 PM
26/03/20 07:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 204
Belgium
Maximuuus Offline
enthusiast
Maximuuus  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 204
Belgium
Thx fanboy. I'm still not sure who is complaining on nearly every topics...

How are we supposed to know what is usefull or useless ?
Google ? New game ? Cristal Ball ?

Useless items everywhere is not a "feature", it's an uninterresting waste of ressources.

About items... same feelings with crate and nearly all container you can pick in your bags... It's boring and useless 95% of the time.

Another thing playing the beginning of DoS 2 : you never know who is a usefull NPC or not... In BG1&2 you didn't talk to all villagers, because it was useless and you can directly see who has something interesting to say... (Quests related, lore,...)

In DoS you know every NPC's name, so everyone has the same "attractiveness" => you have to talk with everyone if you don't want to miss good things.
it's really boring in fort joy to talk to everyone because more than half the NPC just have nothing to say...

Not saying the BG1&2 way is the best of all time or can't be improved.
Think it's possible to find something better than what we already know to improve and better mix readability/gameplay/immersion.


Last edited by Maximuuus; 26/03/20 07:36 PM.
Re: Getting rid of DOS gimmicks/features [Re: kyrthorsen] #665032
26/03/20 07:22 PM
26/03/20 07:22 PM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 45
S
Seraphael Offline
apprentice
Seraphael  Offline
apprentice
S

Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 45
Originally Posted by kyrthorsen

Just my two cents, what DOS gimmicks/features from DOS would you NOT like to see in BG3?

1. Change for just the sake of it? The red FoV is intuitive and provides a tangible sense of the limits of stealth which makes it a mini-game onto itself.
2. Literally watched the gameplay demo to get a clue what you're on about. The only "clouds" there are environmental clouds which plays into Larian's interactive environments (ie. water + fire = steam). These likely come with tangible gameplay effects rather than pure cosmetics. So no.
3. The only overused surfaces is blood which should be tuned down somewhat. A kill with a fire-spell shouldn't make the enemy bleed. Then again...pre-alpha. The interactivity of surfaces allows for creative tactics and is a bonus.
4. BG1-2 had pretty large and messy inventories, doubly so when you include all the bags/pouches you could store gazillion items in. BG3 will have much less emphasis on magic items than did DOS2 for instance. But BG2 was a high-magic setting with an overabundance of strong magical items that defined the character as much as his abilities and class. Hoping for a bit of a tuned down version, but there is always support for crafting and therefore excessive inventories by a vocal minority. Personally I don't like the over-emphasis on looting and subsequent inventory management mini-game of most RPGs. You should not be penalized for not looting everything that isn't nailed down. It's tedious, not realistic and feels forced.
5. Don't understand your objection. If anything I want it more similar to DOS2. At least when it comes to individual initiative rather than the experimental party-based initiative in the demo.
6. You didn't really pay attention to the demo, did you? That jumping isn't a natural power; it's super-charged mind-flayer tadpole vaulting. The animations are still in flux, I personally liked. Feather Fall has been a staple spell of D&D for going on half a century. Morrowind did the rip-off, not the other way around.



Last edited by Seraphael; 26/03/20 07:41 PM.
Re: Getting rid of DOS gimmicks/features [Re: Maximuuus] #665038
26/03/20 08:51 PM
26/03/20 08:51 PM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 283
Emrikol Offline
enthusiast
Emrikol  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 283
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Another thing playing the beginning of DoS 2 : you never know who is a usefull NPC or not... In BG1&2 you didn't talk to all villagers, because it was useless and you can directly see who has something interesting to say... (Quests related, lore,...)

In DoS you know every NPC's name, so everyone has the same "attractiveness" => you have to talk with everyone if you don't want to miss good things.
it's really boring in fort joy to talk to everyone because more than half the NPC just have nothing to say...


Not that you were saying this, but the first impression I got from this is exclamation points over the heads of useful npcs. I think that is a feature in rpgs that needs a swift death. Think of npcs with something useful to say like hidden vaults and such: useful stuff is out there, but just need to search for it.

Re: Getting rid of DOS gimmicks/features [Re: kyrthorsen] #665039
26/03/20 08:54 PM
26/03/20 08:54 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 848
S
Sordak Offline
old hand
Sordak  Offline
old hand
S

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 848
yes talking to NPCs, lame! who needs that

Page 6 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6

Moderated by  Freddo, vometia 

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2