High level spells complicated when other games implemented it???
in part two of the interview (4:25 - https://youtu.be/lvBec5nrogw?t=253) he say level cap is not decided, but more levels make stuff more and more complicated: he make the example of wish spell.
The problem is that Wish, exists on previous games. Is extremely more limited than on P&P yes. Just like dialogs on P&P, you can say anything to a NPC, on a video game, you can say a thing from a fix list. Same with wish, You don't need to receive e-mails and path the game for each one of millions of players. BG2 implemented Both, LIMITED WISH(tier 7) and WISH(tier 9).
The options on BG2 are tied to your WIS score. And some times, they troll the player. Eg "I wish to summon a horde to overrun my enemies." results in "Summons 20 rabbits for 45 sec" And there are one time wishes, including one time wishes that can only be asked once
Now Teleport. Other spell which a lot of people find problematic. Temple Of Elemental Evil, had a lv cap = 10, so no Teleport on ToEE BUT Circle of 8 mod raises the lv cap to 20 and implements teleport into the game. Teleport works like a "instantaneous" fast travel. Dungeons & Dragons Online which also has teleport and greater teleport, including a unique bar where you can only access with teleportation. By having a fix "list" of places to choose from.
Mordenkainen's Disjunction is another spell which a lot of people believe that is problematic, many games remove the "turning magical gear into mundane", but this effects exists on other games, like DDO. The main difference is that this effect is temporary on DDO And in a mmo makes sense. Nobody would ever accept fight a high level warlock on pvp if they can have his magical gear turned into mundane gear by a single spell and lose hours of grinding. That alteration makes sense in a mmo. Pathfinder Kingmaker has a much smaller spell list compared to the TT game. No Wish, Stop Time and Teleport, but you can reach lv 20 on it.
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You can say that most D&D campaigns are low level, that you prefer low level D&D, but i don't get the idea that high level spells are complicated to be implemented when tons of other games implemented then. And any DM can chose to not include a spell in his campaign.
Sven stated in a podcast interview that they have a list of spells that they will be included 100% in the game, and there are others that are under discussion.
In the particular of the wish spell: they want to use the wish spell, for RP purposes. (The wish spell could cure Vampirism, for instance, so it could be tied to Asterion, maybe?)
Imagine if the tadpole already damaged a lot you brain and you need to find an archwizard AND a scroll of wish to solve the problem. Or even better. If you need to just raise money to purchase a wish scroll and all second chapter is around raising that money, like the chapter 2 of BG2 is about raising money.
Imagine if the tadpole already damaged a lot you brain and you need to find an archwizard AND a scroll of wish to solve the problem. Or even better. If you need to just raise money to purchase a wish scroll and all second chapter is around raising that money, like the chapter 2 of BG2 is about raising money.
A horrible idea. It will *inevitably* bring about the loot hoarding that was the weakest part of D:OS2. It's frankly, anti-roleplaying, to strip everything bare to afford the next "big thing". You have a bit of a similar problem in Fallout 4 where you are forced to scour the wasteland for materials to build settlements.
As for level limit and therefore high-level spells, I really hope Larian follow the level 10 limit previously indicated. If for nothing else, then for keeping alive the hopes of a BG4 in which you get to follow your character and companions growth over more than one game like the original series.
Imagine if the tadpole already damaged a lot you brain and you need to find an archwizard AND a scroll of wish to solve the problem. Or even better. If you need to just raise money to purchase a wish scroll and all second chapter is around raising that money, like the chapter 2 of BG2 is about raising money.
A horrible idea. It will *inevitably* bring about the loot hoarding that was the weakest part of D:OS2. It's frankly, anti-roleplaying, to strip everything bare to afford the next "big thing". You have a bit of a similar problem in Fallout 4 where you are forced to scour the wasteland for materials to build settlements.
As for level limit and therefore high-level spells, I really hope Larian follow the level 10 limit previously indicated. If for nothing else, then for keeping alive the hopes of a BG4 in which you get to follow your character and companions growth over more than one game like the original series.
Did you played BG2? You literally have to raise 20k or 15k depending of your choices on chapter 2 and can do whatever you want.to raise it. BG2 has no "stat bloat", in fact, is possible to solo the game naked.
You don't need to constant update your gear every single time just because you need to raise money in a quest. I don't get your idea...
Originally Posted by Sordak
we already know the wish spell is in the game.
Probably as a story item only.
Wish is a spell which if the DM is not a good DM, can solve over 99% of problems that the party finds.
The guy can literally wish anything and is up to the DM if the wish will work, fail or work but not as intended. Eg - You desire to become a God, but a divine sparkle is far above what a tier 9 magic can do, so you will end up trapped as a god slime in prime elemental of fire suffering burns for all eternity.
If the pĺayer decides like "cure the Stradh vampirism" in a Ravenloft campaign, i would ask for then to roll and unless they roll like 20, the wish will fail. And maybe will be a backlash. Like rolling 3d6 and taking the result on CON damage from the backlash from the demiplane of shadows.
Did you played BG2? You literally have to raise 20k or 15k depending of your choices on chapter 2 and can do whatever you want.to raise it. BG2 has no "stat bloat", in fact, is possible to solo the game naked.
You don't need to constant update your gear every single time just because you need to raise money in a quest. I don't get your idea...
Yes. Played it and the prequel when initially released. Played the Enhanced Editions when they were released for good measure. You likely beat the game solo without items (and with great knowledge of the game), but that is a testament to overpowered arcane casters, an imbalance that somewhat lingers till this date.
That you simply state BG2 did something similar to what you suggest and imply therefore it must be good, kind of reveals you view it as a perfect holy grail. It was not. The BG-series too had loot-bloat; the magic items there were so prolific and became so powerful - they were character-defining more so than your "stats" (abilities) or arguably even your class (unless playing the aforementioned casters). The 15k gold needed to rescue Imoen in BG2 wasn't much of a meaningful obstacle; you could raise that amount easily and quickly. You could also postpone rescuing her until much later, or not at all. No pressure. In BG3 this has to be weighed against the prospect of selling your immortal soul to the devil Raphael (possibly his master) in order for you and your companions to simply stay alive. So any alternative (like your proposal) would have to be comparably that much harder to be meaningful. I would hate to have a mechanic where the player is incentivized/forced to become a pack-mule for everything not nailed down bringing you above the encumbrance limit. I hate inventory mini-games. I hate (excessive) crafting. This plays into all of that.
Did you played BG2? You literally have to raise 20k or 15k depending of your choices on chapter 2 and can do whatever you want.to raise it. BG2 has no "stat bloat", in fact, is possible to solo the game naked.
You don't need to constant update your gear every single time just because you need to raise money in a quest. I don't get your idea...
Yes. Played it and the prequel when initially released. Played the Enhanced Editions when they were released for good measure. You likely beat the game solo without items (and with great knowledge of the game), but that is a testament to overpowered arcane casters, an imbalance that somewhat lingers till this date.
That you simply state BG2 did something similar to what you suggest and imply therefore it must be good, kind of reveals you view it as a perfect holy grail. It was not. The BG-series too had loot-bloat; the magic items there were so prolific and became so powerful - they were character-defining more so than your "stats" (abilities) or arguably even your class (unless playing the aforementioned casters). The 15k gold needed to rescue Imoen in BG2 wasn't much of a meaningful obstacle; you could raise that amount easily and quickly. You could also postpone rescuing her until much later, or not at all. No pressure. In BG3 this has to be weighed against the prospect of selling your immortal soul to the devil Raphael (possibly his master) in order for you and your companions to simply stay alive. So any alternative (like your proposal) would have to be comparably that much harder to be meaningful. I would hate to have a mechanic where the player is incentivized/forced to become a pack-mule for everything not nailed down bringing you above the encumbrance limit. I hate inventory mini-games. I hate (excessive) crafting. This plays into all of that.
You are completely wrong.
1 - There are no need to have metaknowledge. I soloed the game as a fighter/mage(necromancer) on my first run and on IWD:EE, i also solowed as a sorcerer with no metaknowledge. Only had trouble with the final enemies.
2 = There are no loot bloat on BG2. When i got my +3 weapon on chapter 2, i literally used the same weapon until underdark. You don't need to constant change your items on BG1/2
3 - The 15k is quick to get BUT it allows the PC to explore a huge open world before adventuring on chapter 3. And the amount of side content is amazing on BG2, if BG3 has the same content, it will be great.
4 - Casters aren't overpowered. They take far longer time to level up and has a ridiculous low HP. Also, adamantine golems are a nightmare for 90%+ of casters. Dual classing are the best classes to solo the game. Exactly because you can use deadly spells and deadly weapons as a high level Fighter/Mage.
And arguably Fighter/Cleric is the best class ever.
I suggest to check this video >
5 - Inventory management is a huge part of most RPG's. And IMO inventory "tetris" is the best one. I really miss old Might & Magic games.
Haha. I must laugh about your predictable outrage and hyperbole. Nothing I stated was wrong, let alone "completely wrong". I was talking about the premise you set out: "Solo and naked". It stands to stands to reason the *only* classes capable of that specific feat would be casters (and you would certainly be well served with good meta-knowledge beforehand). I though my mentioning casters and overpowered in the same sentence would trigger you, so fully expected the outburst! Just accept that this is pretty much an objective statement of a universally accepted fact. Dual-classing in BG2/2e was almost free levels (at the price of a quickly passing inconvenience) for instance given the exponential curve of level advancement and the ultra-high level cap. Even so, those fighter levels of yours wouldn't have accounted to much - without overpowered magical items, let alone "naked". I played a multi-class Fighter/Wizard myself and had the best of two worlds. Enough digressions though.
BG most definitely had "bloat", but of course, relative to the "king of bloat" D:OS2, it was a rather trifle matter. Weapons like Crom Faeyr and Flail of Ages were literal artifacts (you could fairly easily kill creatures immune to just about everything just with the diverse elemental damage this brought to the table), and there were many other astoundingly powerful items that "made your character".
If you still have failed to understand me; I want a game very much focused upon the story and character development and consider *excessive* focus on loot and crafting as a hindrance to that goal. Especially if you have a bit of OCD like me. A game quickly degenerates to micromanagement hell. I consider such elements as window-dressing for games that lack deeper substance, best suited sandbox type of open world like MMORPGs. Your proposed idea of money hoarding as an alternative to selling one's soul to solve the tadpole problem, would almost inevitably lead to that focus becoming excessive. Inversely, the suspense; the drama and desperation of the situation would be diminished by any relative ease of raising the required funds.
I certainly hope we don’t have a part in BG3 where we just need to raise a bunch of money for something asian BG2. 1) we already did that, and 2) I think that was the weakest part of BG2. I love chapter 2 for all the cool stuff you can do, but the game really loses narrative focus. My call to arms is either to rescue Imoen or revenge myself upon Irenicus, but I’ve never completed that chapter without doing almost everything there is to do fist, and with well over the amount of gold I needed to raise.
This happens in a lot of RPGs, and it always kind of bothers me. With Pillars of Eternity 2, I am supposed to be chasing a rampaging god that has my soul, but instead I meander about visiting every island first. This ostensibly dire circumstance becomes almost comically incidental. I could go straight to the objective, role playing that there is an actual urgent sense of imperative that I do so, but then I’d be missing out on a (literal) boat load of content that I want to play.
The thing that bothers me so much about this is that there is a really obvious solution to it: design your story to match the world you are building. Have a big open world with side quests and optional content all over the map? Design a story where you need to travel all over the map and aren’t in any particular rush about it.
Legend of Zelda: BotW, did a pretty great job of this. The game opens up with you more or less overlooking the final dungeon. You could run straight there, but you have lost your memories and aren’t really strong enough, yet. By traveling around the world you can restore your memories, get stronger, and awaken the divine beasts to aid you against the Big Bad. The world is already destroyed, so it’s not like you have to worry about preventing the apocalypse. You’re living in it. This setup encourages exploration, so narrative and design are matching each other neatly.
It might be a bit contrived, but I find this much more satisfying than the game’s story telling me “Oh my God, this is terrible! Do something about this awful thing!†And then I don’t do it, almost forget about it, and nothing happens.
This is all a long winded way of saying that I hope Larian can do better than “Raise $20k gold by doing A, B, C, D, or E or you will become a mindflayer.†And then I just go do A, B, C, D, and E, end up with $100k gold, and have completely undermined the narrative objective.
The thing that bothers me so much about this is that there is a really obvious solution to it: design your story to match the world you are building. Have a big open world with side quests and optional content all over the map? Design a story where you need to travel all over the map and aren’t in any particular rush about it.
We already know that in BG3 you have a week until the tadpole in your head turns you into a tentacled abomination and a slave to an elder brain; so I think that train is already left...
I must laugh about your predictable outrage and hyperbole. Nothing I stated was wrong, let alone "completely wrong"
Yep; you are the absolute God of reason and never commit any mistake.
Originally Posted by Seraphael
and there were many other astoundingly powerful items that "made your character".
You are completely wrong. 1 - Those items depends on weapon proficiency to be effective. 2 - They also have stat requirement. You need 18 STR to use the best longbows in the game. At the same way that you need 18 INT to be able to learn tier 9 magic.
The weapons that you can find and spells that you can learn enhance what your character is, doesn't determine your character. Games where gear made your characters are more akin to Diablo 3. And guess what. 5e magical items are far less strong than on 2e AND BG3 will be lower level. A weapon which deals additional +d4 elemental damage would probably be a rare mid to late game weapon.
Originally Posted by Seraphael
best suited sandbox type of open world like MMORPGs. Your proposed idea of money hoarding as an alternative to selling one's soul to solve the tadpole problem, would almost inevitably lead to that focus becoming excessive. Inversely, the suspense; the drama and desperation of the situation would be diminished by any relative ease of raising the required funds.
Not truth. Raising money being a lv 8+ adventurer on BG2 is far easier than raising money being a lv 1 adventurer. if you had like one week to raise 20k gold and if the "cure" can't save all party members and you have a lot of hard choices about "who save", it can be very tense.
People criticized that the chapter 2 of Bg2 is dissociated from the sense of "haste" but chapter 2 is not bad. Is not just "hur dur farming gear", all side story on chapter 2 has a lot of cool stuff and interesting things that happens.
The unique problem of Chapter 2 of BG2 is the sense of urgency. A Time Limit can make raising money interesting but people hate it on most games. See FL 1/2...
Originally Posted by Warlocke
This happens in a lot of RPGs, and it always kind of bothers me. With Pillars of Eternity 2, I am supposed to be chasing a rampaging god that has my soul, but instead I meander about visiting every island first. This ostensibly dire circumstance becomes almost comically incidental. I could go straight to the objective, role playing that there is an actual urgent sense of imperative that I do so, but then I’d be missing out on a (literal) boat load of content that I want to play.
The thing that bothers me so much about this is that there is a really obvious solution to it: design your story to match the world you are building.(...)
I agree, but Pathfinder Kingmaker received a lot of criticism because "i can't be in other side of the world doing nothing while trolls attack my Barony and expect no consequences"
The chapter 2 of BG2 would be better if din't had the sense of urgency.
Creativity and imagination are the greatest weapons that any RPG can utilise to make a great game. Especially if they are adapting a tabletop RPG like DnD. High-level spells like Wish can be game-breaking if implemented poorly it is true, but I have rarely played many adventures where the characters reach that level of power, most games I have played have ended with the party at level 10 or 15 at most and rarely reach the 20 level margin where you suffer the Superman effect, of where your characters are so ridiculously powerful what could conceivably and realistically challenge them.
Creativity and imagination are the greatest weapons that any RPG can utilise to make a great game. Especially if they are adapting a tabletop RPG like DnD. High-level spells like Wish can be game-breaking if implemented poorly it is true, but I have rarely played many adventures where the characters reach that level of power, most games I have played have ended with the party at level 10 or 15 at most and rarely reach the 20 level margin where you suffer the Superman effect, of where your characters are so ridiculously powerful what could conceivably and realistically challenge them.
Having a wish scroll and being able to cast wish are two different things. On BG2, i got some tier 7 scrolls which i could only use far later in the game. On BG1, you can purchase a stone to flesh scroll which you just can't learn due lv cap.
Is a problem of how 5e scales health and damage, where on higher levels, takes a eternity to die. On 2e, the Dark Lord of Barovia, is a lv 16 necromancer. His hp? Around 60 points. Because casters had only d4 hit points per hit dice, the CON bonus was smaller and after lv 10, you don't get d4+con mod, you gain only 2 hit points. A rogue can end the life of a lv 20 mage in one round. My epic mage on BG2:ToB had about 60 hp, while on 5e, is possible for someone to have it on lv 5.
On 3.5e, i fell like the hp become too inflated BUT there are OHK spells from 2e. On 5e in other hands, you don't have OHK spells nor low HP, so unless you are in lower dark, or in far realm, few things can challenge you.
5e also has far slower numbers.
Strahd von Zarovich on 5e is a 9th level caster. On 2e is a 16th level necromancer. With a lot of nasty spells. Many high level creatures got nerfed to mid level too on 5e. Which makes challenging a high level party even harder.
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