Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Add more answer options for Astarion

I wrote about this in another topic, but decided to create a separate one. Me and several other players noticed a strong difference in the dialogues between Ascended Astarion and Spawn Astarion. The difference comes from the player's character and this seriously interferes with the role-play.



You can see Tav's answers for Ascended Astarion. I assure you, at this point he did not say or do anything offensive towards our character. He just asked "What do you want". This dialog has a good option at the beginning: "I just wanted you to be happy" But then there is not a single positive or neutral answer option. There is many options that provoke conflict. The option "I want you" and then the clarification "YOUR BODY" even seems offensive to me. But if someone wants to play bad_guy_tm, it's appropriate. However, for a character who is happy with everything in this situation, there is no suitable option. What option could there be?

"Now I just want to get rid of the tadpoles"
"I want to be with you" (have nothing to do with the body) etc

Astarion will still offer us the "gift of eternity", but it is much better when he does it himself. "I want to be a vampire like you" option sounds selfish, as if we used him. We have only the last two possible answers, which create an atmosphere of aggression and conflict. In this situation, which is funny, the aggressor is not Astarion, but our character. And all because dev didn't give us a choice to behave differently.

The latter answer simply creates a conflict out of thin air, since Astarion has called us a "pet" before and this has never caused anger. This disadvantage applies not only to Ascended Astarion.

Let's look at the dialogues of Spawn Astarion, and we will understand that you do not have a single frankly rude answer. There's also no way you can miss the tombstone scene, literally. You can't refuse, you can't leave during the scene. You can't answer spawn with "I was just having fun" or "I wanted to have a good time, but I don't want anything serious." After all, you can add the answer "I'm too tired I don't want to go anywhere." There is a similar answer for Emperor scene, when he appears in a dream and you can refuse him a dialogue. I can get out of my own head, but not from a tombstone.


Honestly, it's weird. It feels as if the writer is trying to impose they position on my character and this is unpleasant, and also interferes with the role-play. Like, "this is bad, so you have to behave like this" and "this is good, so don't you dare be rude." I think every player can decide for themselves.

Positive or neutral option should be added for Ascended Astarion.

Negative option should be added for Spawn Astarion. It is possible to break off the relationship or not go to the tombstone at all.

Please consider this possibility.

I will be glad if others support this idea.

Agreed! I always choose ascension in my play-through and it’s not because ‘I want his body.’ That always leaves a bad taste in my mouth because, sure, it’s part of it, but I want him because of who he is. I want him to be stronger, to achieve autonomy for once and, to me, he wants it.

Ascended Astarion still has trauma which will take time to work through, so delegating him to a sex object just because he went ahead with the ritual… it doesn’t make sense at all. I want him to be his own person, that’s why I play ascended. If I wanted a toy, I’d stay single.

I support Nyloth, it was very strange to see 4 out of 5 Tav’s lines in the game in a negative way.

This touched my vulnerable nature a little.

Ascended Astarion deserves normal/cute responses, it's a roleplay after all. I don't want to be rude to my dark companion. On the contrary, I want to say that I am completely on his side.

I totally support it! I've dreamed of having an affair with a gorgeous, complex, Merry Villain since I was a kid. I want to act like a bunny. Or a happy Queen. Or both. Please

Yeah, to me these were also moments when I lost immersion.
For every other dialogue in the game, I had an option to behave like an ass, be neutral/grey or play a good guy/be supportive. And yet here every option for ascendant feels bad/negative and there's no way to refuse the spawn. For ascendant, your Tav only wanted to make a transaction(to become a vampire/have sex) or they are mad at the change they helped to make a few minutes earlier. And similarly for the spawn, Tav can't change mind/continue to be an ass.
Narrowing dialogue options (in their tone) kinda breaks role playing and immersion to me. If I should feel bad/good about something, it's better to kill me with consequences of my actions. (There are so many good moments already in this game, when I felt like crap/satisfied after some choice, and it was just because the game gave me that choice and successfully showed me something AFTER the choice was made. Not because it was showing me the right way by dialogue options.)

+1 I always advocate for more chances for immersive role-playing! And while these dialogue options didn't detract my personal playthrough, I will always love more options to say/do different things.

The post-ascension conversation completely destroyed my immersion and was the most difficult dialogue to get through because none of the selections were remotely tolerable.
Where is the option to say

'You don't have to do anything for me, I'm just glad he won't bother us anymore and we can relax now. We're finally free of him."
or
"I think we should toast to our victory. I've been saving a bottle just for the occasion."
or
"We could go for a midnight stroll in some dark alleys and look for trouble. Not like I'll have to worry about getting hurt with a mighty vampire lord by my side."
?

I don't want to ask to be turned as a form of transaction and especially just after dealing with his personal problem, I don't want to lust over his body to trivialise a crucial moment in his and Tav's relationship, I'm not angry about being called a 'pet' again and after having heard him use so many names already (at this point to me it's just an Astarion thing; he even has a hilarious banter with Lae'zel about pet names, where he teaches her some of them and they're all related to food) and I don't want to lecture him after being cautiously optimistic yet fully supportive of his ascension throughout the game.
The moment after the ritual we can tell him he's magnificent, cheekily say we're not afraid of him, tell him to embrace his powers, express relief that Cazador is gone. These are all positive or neutral options. However, as soon as we go for a long rest suddenly Tav gets cranky, obnoxious and confrontational. It's pure nonsense!

When we compare it to the spawn conversation it's obvious the game is trying to raillroad us into breaking up with the ascendant and hooking up with spawn Astarion. Clearly the author there put all Tavs in one bag, assumes selfish motivations on the player's part and wants to send them a message. It's not only preachy, limiting and lacks continuity but it's also downright contradictory. On one hand the game is telling us 'this is a bad thing you did there, you know, just look at the a-hole you are', while at the same time rewards us because AA has more dialogues, more comments, his behaviour is consistent and it's a logical conclusion to his story.

We need more roleplay options for both paths.

To be fair, the way he says pet post ascension is clearly meant to be more demeaning than when he says it as a term of endearment. I think it‘s a natural conversation path for an evil character who genuinely loves him, but is resistant to the idea of being forced to submit to him.

> I’m not your pet
> it’s a joke, stop being a humorless little wretch
> it’s not a joke, it sounds like you mean it
> …
> After everything we’ve been through with Cazador, you want to make me your spawn?
> It wouldn’t be anything like how it was with Cazador! I’d never hurt you! I love you! …that’s what you’ve been wanting to hear, isn’t it?
> …

The biggest misses are that there’s no way to A. tell it to him straight that you see what he’s trying to do and you’re not going to be his slave, or B. respond with genuine affirmation that you want to be with him knowing full well what he’s proposing.

I do hate how most of the dialogue options seem to suggest you’re just stupidly naive. Like, cmon, my DUrge made SH into a DJ, like hell they’re gonna tell him they won’t help him ascend. They’re just as cowardly and power hungry as he is. And what the hell is “I want your body” as an option? Like who is that for? Lol.

Side note: I do think he should offer to get back together with you when he tries to apologize later if you rejected him and broke up. Right now, you can stay together as a non vampire if you end the game before getting this scene, in which case he’ll say “This isn’t what you want yet…but I’m sure you’ll come around in time.” I could see him coming back with a “I was hasty before…, perhaps you just aren’t ready to rush into things”

I'm not asking to remove existing dialog options. Each of them may be appropriate for a particular character. However, this dialogue has no positive options. All of them automatically make you either selfish or offended. Your character is always unhappy. Even when you choose this option, you can see the animation of discontent and aggression on Tav face.

My character is happy with everything and I would like to support Astarion, and not find fault with words.

Yes, there definitely needs add dialogue to delay transform into spawn. For example, the option "I need to think, this is a serious decision" or "Let's deal with worms first, it is unknown how they will affect my transformation."


Also interesting options, especially considering the fact Ascended Astarion is the only one who does not have any romantic scenes.

The writers aren't trying to impose a position on your character, they've constructed a narrative because it's a story. The choices you're given reflect the intended narrative themes. The crux of Astarion's story here is about whether he will break the cycle of abuse or continue it. The romance is only potentially a part of that and his story exists outside of it. It's an authentic portrayal of the varying ways abuse and trauma can affect people, and they never pull punches with how ugly and corrosive that can be at any point in Astarion's story. They're not going to do it at the conclusion which is meant to be a brutally honest portrayal of the cyclical nature of abuse. It's a very well written and poignant narrative conclusion to his story and a valid path to choose. That's not to say anyone is wrong for enjoying or being attracted to this version of the character. They're not. But what's being asked for here is a different version of the character and story they've written.

It should be reflected in him, not in my character. They can portray him as they want, I'm not asking to change his answers. I ask to change MY answers. I am completely satisfied with his Ascended version. So I don't understand why you wrote all this.

Writer forces me to provoke a conflict when I don't want to. It doesn't show any trauma, it's simple... foolishly. This is a silly letter for a role-playing game. And, if you haven't forgotten, it's not just a story. This is not a book. This is a role-playing game, which means you can change this story. If they take away my ability to change the story, then it's bad for the role-playing game. If my character is completely satisfied with Astarion's behavior and does not pursue selfish goals (SUCH AS HIS BODY), then I should have a suitable answer.

I hope now you understand what I mean?

I also don't understand how everything you wrote relates to the fact that I can't leave the cemetery scene. Any character deserves to answer "no, I don't want to go with you, I'm tired/etc". I could have done it in the second act at the moment of his confession, but I can't do it in the third? And you tell me that this is not an imposition of story? What is the problem?

Please make it happen, I was soo weirded by the options, my character 100% supported his decision to ascend since the beginning and those options seemed like I was trying to guilt trip him, not in my character at all, I just wanted to say something like, I'm happy is over and you finally get to live again!" Or "I'm happy that you are free, and is enough for me to be by your side". I don't think is fair the game is basically taking a decision for my character to be a brat after being on board with everything so far.

So much this - I’ve supported AA the whole game and wanted him to complete the ritual. And now the choices are effectively painting me as a bad person for supporting AA (sex object / vamp transaction) or I break up with him because he’s suddenly morally reprehensible.

I feel like the writers have forgotten he’s a vampire, he’s always going to be a bit dubious and it’s perfectly okay to support him as the MC without being pigeon holed by morality activists.

Ok, so I'm kinda having a hard time understanding the ask here for some of these comments. Like, yes, the options are overly assumptive about the players motives, but his behavior post ascension is legitimately abusive. A character who's going to stay with him needs to reconcile that in some way unless you're a doormat who wants to be walked over.

Astarion's clearly experiencing some regret / guilt post ascension, and from his behavior we can see that he's projecting his anger at himself onto the PC. He's not trying to win the PC over in that moment. His goal is to provoke them into showing their "true colors" through a love-test designed to be impossible. He wants the PC to lash out at him and call him a monster. If they do, he can write them off entirely and absolve himself as the victim in this situation for having been manipulated by a PC who supposedly "loved him".

So, that's kinda the issue. There isn't a way to smooth things over. His goal is to hurt you, plain and simple. No amount of agreeing with his decision or reassuring him should necessarily be able to change that. The only way to prove it to him is to become his spawn, an act that is essentially surrendering your boundaries and control as a show of loyalty.

Given all that, what is missing? A character who is happy with the outcome and wants to maintain the status quo should probably be calling out his negative attitude / demeanor, but if you want to ignore it, fine. Either way, it should still run up into the same ultimatum: become my spawn or we're done. I could see some attempts to reassure him that what he did shouldn't weigh on him or promises that you're loyal no matter what, but those are all gonna run up against the "prove it by becoming my spawn" test still.

I think what would really help is a:

So, tell me what you desire. What can I do for my favorite pet?

> 5. "What is this really about Astarion?"

that can quickly get us to some version of "You made me this, if you really love me, prove it! Become my spawn!"

damn u got me... saw right thru my evangelical crusade... the bible says u have to renounce ascended astarion in the name of the lord or u will burn in the fires of hell like a butthole after too many jalapeno poppers... repent while u still can it's not too late u can be a moral activist too

He’s not abusive in my RP - I envisioned a cross between Frank N Furter and Dracula and that’s exactly what I got. It may not be to everyone’s taste but that’s why this is an RP.


Astarion: It feels so good. Freedom - true freedom. Finally.

Astarion: I can feel my strength growing. Every day that passes, I gain new abilities.

Astarion: You know, now that our enemies have fallen, I might be the most powerful person in the world.

Astarion: And as you're my consort, that makes us the most powerful people in the world.

Tav: I wouldn't want it any other way.

Astarion: And neither would I. Together, we can do anything.

Astarion: The world is ours for the taking. So, what would you like?

Tav: I want to see the world, with you at my side.

Astarion: Then you shall. We'll travel the lands together, tasting everything Faerun has to offer.

Astarion: Perharps we'll find somewhere we'd like to stay for a century or two - perhaps not.

Astarion: We have a beautiful, bloody future to look forward to, my love. I can't be sure what it holds for us, but I know one thing.

Astarion: This is going to be fun.

He doesn’t sound like he’s bitter here… or feels regret or guilt. It sounds like he’s got everything he ever wanted.

Well, if your character is an bad_guy, then these options suit them, so I don't see the point in deleting it, only adding new ones. I mean, he literally asked what we wanted. What's offensive about that? At that moment, he asks a question and calls you a pet, as he called you before. To see something offensive in this, you need to look at it in a special way. Literally before that, he can call you his "blood bag" and you are not offended. And now you're offended? A very strange way of looking at things.



Well, you literally didn't read my post and just wrote a standard set of phrases for Spawn lovers. I even checked Bingo Fixers, you almost won! You wrote about everything you could, but not about the topic that is being discussed here. You saw the word "Ascended" and something in your head immediately broke. If you are here to provoke people, then I think I should contact moderator.




You absolutely correctly noticed that dialogue in the finale and after the ritual is very different. The atmosphere is different, as if the character was written by completely different people.

I must say if you do not sleep and get the ending of "mortal", A. Astarion's romance looks much better, simply because you miss this stupid dialogue that we are discussing here.

I hope, you realise, that you just named two posterchilds of abusive behaviour. Both Frank'N'Further and Dracula are highly toxic and abusive and I'm more than a bit troubled, that you would use them as examples for not abusive behaviour. But then, people are trying to excuse Edward Cullen and Christian Grey, who frankly both belong in jail.

Edit: I'm not really interested in talking about ascended Astarion, but I'm very familiar with both Bram Stokers work ( and I'm not talking about the mostly unfaithful movies, I'm talking about the book) and the Rocky Horror Show and had to pinch in here.

Based on your speculation, all vampires are offensive and toxic. But in those days it was an example of romanticism. I mean, the girls even liked gaslighter Lestat, so... I don't see that as a problem. Modern views on past images can spoil your impression. You should also know heroines of these novels rarely showed aggression towards their "abuser". They're fascinated by them. Which leads us to the fact that regardless of the behavior evil character, we can still show sympathy for him. But I still don't see anything so offensive in the question "what do you want", sorry. The image of Dracula is also considered sexy, romantic and dangerous, that's the point. This is not news.

I'm sorry, Dracula was never meant to be romantic or sexy. I'm talking about the original novel, not the movies. Dracula didn't look like Frank Langella, Christopher Lee or Gary Oldman. He looked dead, smelled dead and used everyone around him.

If you like toxic characters, I'm not kinkshaming, but as a fan of gothic literature, I have to set things straight here.
Lestat btw was not a nice person either and he is written in modern times, same as Edward Cullen ( or Christian Grey besides not being a vampire). I don't care, if you like toxic characters, but at least acknowledge, that they are toxic. From what I saw of ascended Astarion, I would kill him right away, if he would accidentally ascend in my games, because yes, he is toxic too.

And most vampires are offensive and toxic by nature. They kill people. Yes, you have the occasional good vampire, like in Barbara Hamblys novels or maybe Beckett, the signature character for clan Gangrel in Vampire the Masquerade ( there are actually some decent characters). There is Daedalus from Kindred- the Embraced and some others. I would say, that Louis from the Anne Rice novels at least tries to be as good as possible ( in Rice's novels, vampires have to kill their victims, unlike in other media/books).
The point is, I don't care, if you like ascended Astarion, Dracula, Edward Cullen or Lestat, I just want to set the record straight.

You’re probably right that I view it through rose tinted spectacles - as a woman born in the 80s, Dracula, Frank N Furter and Lestat were all high pinnacle romances for bad girls. That’s probably why I don’t have a problem with them.

People brought up on Twilight might have a different POV (which is totally fine), but at least I knew what I was getting when I chose Astarion’s ascended version.

This is what I meant when I said you're asking them to write another story and character. The abusive nature of the relationship is integral to the narrative. They're not going to make changes that totally undercut the story they've written. What you're asking for is a dark fantasy romance akin to Spike and Drusilla and although the illusion of this is what Astarion is using to entice the player, because he believes it's what they want, the dialogue is presented the way it is to reflect the true nature of the situation.

You don't view the relationship as transactional, but the character you're speaking to does and they want to make that clear because it's an important part of his story. That being said, you do have options to tell him you did it because you wanted what was best for him. It's literally the first dialogue option available. You can also tell him you wanted him to be free, but it seems now he never will be. The first part reflects the player's intention and the second reflects the narrative outcome. I understand you can play a character who doesn't believe that, but they're trying to balance between the freedom to roleplay and story integrity.

If you want the option to miss out on the final scene of his quest if he doesn't ascend, that's fine I guess? But most people aren't going to get all the way through a story and decide they don't want to see the conclusion. They'd have to write, act, and record dialogue for it and for the follow up conversation that almost no one is going to see. It's a waste of time and resources. Whereas a lot of players will choose to end the relationship rather than become his slave, so they had to account for that.

Will also add that while you can't break up with him in the graveyard scene, you can be a jerk. You can be neutral. You're not forced to commit to anything or sleep with him. And you can breakup with him immediately afterwards, up to the very last scene of the game. But again, the scene is more than a conclusion to the romance. It's a potential conclusion to the character's story and they want it to play out in a way that does justice to it because they care about the quality of the writing.

Also want to say there's nothing wrong with wanting a dark fantasy romance. I love that shit. I just think the reason people may be unhappy is because they're looking for something in the story that isn't meant to be there.

I'm older than you. As I said, I'm ok with people liking the bad boy trope, I'm not shaming Here. But I'm an avid gothic and horror reader and a musical fan and had to just get that out of my system.
I don't have a problem with adults indulging in stuff like Twilight, 50 Shades or ascended Astarion. I am a bit shocked though, that Twilight is for teens and it shows them a very unhealthy relationship dynamic.

But I digressed long enough, sorry, I see myself out. Happy discussions.

Same here, friend, no shaming on either side, we all have different preferences. I like RP’ing these characters because I know I wouldn’t put up with it in real life. They’re ’safe spaces’ to explore our darker sides in a consensual and informed way.

Anyway, I hope future DLCs will help provide more lore if nothing else ^^ (once they fix act 3!)

It's not about how it should and shouldn't have been, but how the audience perceived it. The image of a vampire has become dangerous and fascinating for a reason, you cannot dictate to people how they should perceive fiction.

Lestat is not written in our days, if you are talking about the first books. Of course, he is not as ancient as Dracula, but his image is not the same as Edward. Should we bring up the topic of some crazy clans from VtM? I hope not...

I didn't deny toxicity, I said it wasn't a problem and this image remains romantic. It doesn't matter if it's toxic or not. Most villains in literature will be toxic. And yet people look at Dracula and Phantom of Opera with adoration. They love them. Even 10-20 years ago, no one used word "toxic" or "abuser" for fictional characters. Let's admit this is a modern trend. You don't have to use these words for literal characters.

If you didn't care, you wouldn't have written it, let's be honest. And if you are actively trying to prove to someone "oh, this character is very toxic, so you should not love him and his actions should offend you" - then you really care about it. Which, by the way, is rly strange. Btw "something between" its not exactly the same.

The next time you "don't care", don't say anything.

We already know from the script it should be there. If you have the option to remain mortal at the end and there are special answers for this scene, then you must have a line in the dialogue that will lead to this. Once again, even if Astarion perceives this relationship as a barter (I disagree with this by the way), it's on him, not on my character. I should be able to play this moment the way I want. I don't understand why you are so resistant to one positive answer option. Literally, they can add one positive line. It's not that much.

He may even respond rudely to this positive line. I don't care. But I want to answer something positively, because the question "what do you want" is not rude and will never be rude.

Hey now, no need to get angry here. I said, I don't care about ascended Astarion, since that will not happen in my games. As I mentioned to Dark Angel, I'm very into gothic and horror novels and I had the urge to just put things right. Book Dracula was not romantic in any way, he was a decaying corps, who smelled like a decaying corps. Dracula as the gentleman vampire is a reimagination by Hollywood and his second movie encounter with Bela Lugosi ( the first one was Murnaus Nosferatu, where despite the changed name, the vampire was mainly shown as he was in the book).
As I said, I don't shame you or want in any way tell you, how you play your game, I was simply answering Dark Angel about Dracula and Frank'N'Further not being good examples for non toxic people. I know, that dark romance exists as a genre, I worked long enough in a book store, this was mainly a discussion about literature and musicals.
And I'm sorry, if I derailed the thread, I'm more than happy to discuss further via pm. I have no problems with different opinions and views, I myself am romantic as a stone, soI mostly don't get the fascination.

I don't think anyone here has a problem with that. But it should be made clear with Astarion's words, not the player's. The dialogue in question only has the following options: 1. "turn me"; 2. "fuck me"; 3 and 4. "let's argue". There's nothing to pick if your character for example doesn't want anything from him and isn't interested in picking arguments. Astarion's personality doesn't need to change if the player is allowed to say "i don't want anything." He'd just continue pushing and it would be in character.

I'm confused because there are positive lines for the player. How is saying you wanted what was best for him not positive? When he asks what you want you can then say you want to be a vampire like him. When he asks if you want to be his forever you can say yes, it's all you want.

You can only get the scene where you say you're not ready to be a spawn yet if you circumvent his ultimatum by not triggering the intended scene. I agree that the writing there conflicts. But they'd need to add more than a line of dialogue if you were able to stay with him without becoming a spawn. And ultimately that's not the story they wanted to tell.

But when I said it's not meant to be there, I wasn't referring specifically to the option to stay with him and keep your freedom. I'm talking about the version of a dark romance people seem to be asking for in general. There isn't a more genuine romantic moment because they're intentionally portraying the start of an abusive relationship. And it seems like people are really looking for a version of the relationship that isn't abusive, but his being trapped in the cycle of abuse is the point. It's part of the conclusion to his story.

That would be That would be fine. But that's not the only thing being asked for here at all or the only sentiment being expressed.

This is literally the only thing I asked for. Add a positive phrase for Ascended and a negative one for Spawn.

Being a vampire like you is not a positive option. Because it's barter again. Besides, who told you that my character wants to be a vampire or planned it? Exactly. Why should I choose such a narrowly focused answer that I never even thought about. Oh, wait, because the other three are aggressive... well, wow. And we come back to this problem again.

Also sorry, I should have quoted. But I wasn't responding to you with that post. I was responding to the person who called me a moral activist, because I thought it was funny. I don't have a problem with the ascended storyline. And I'm not someone who thinks you have to clarify that's it toxic or "bad" if you like it. Women especially are shamed for their taste in fictional men and I think that's why my talking about the abuse in the story might be making people feel like they have to defend themselves from something. I'm discussing the themes in the story and how I don't think the narrative should be undercut because people just want it to be a romance. I'm also not only responding to you, but the comments in the thread overall.

(Edit to say that I did actually quote the post I was responding to.)

Yes, to be more detailed.
This weak dialog comes after "I want the best for you."
".... What can I do for you my pet?"
1. My goal is not to become a vampire. Pass. \If that's not what Astarion wants, but hasn't really said it in this dialog yet\

2. He's one of the reasons I play. I want to, of course. I saw it as a sharp flirtation from my Tav... But if you think about it, "Your body," as Nyloth said, is really kind of... not very nice. Especially since Astarion said he didn't want it to look like "just sex". Pass. \I'm a fairly romantic person

3. Not so bad, but I'm not a teacher. But I have to be because...

4. I (my Tav) his, from Act 1. This has always been a edgy flirtation for me from the vampire bun. He used to call my Tav that. Though in this situation he was probably testing a reaction, but it's not clear because he's actually flirted like that before. I think I sensed a hint of it, but like my reaction was still : D "Huh, you cheeky pup". If I said that, it was just playful.

So, yeah, we're not the romantic option. But it's a romance with the Vampire Lord. We can carve out a grove and ok, evil but ok, and we can't be romantic with Lord Astarion. Meh.

5. I want to be with you. - That's a good suggestion

6. Or really be the practical Tav who thinks and\or worries not about candles and bodies but about dealing with the tadpole in our heads. And again it's just practical-neutral (although it's even caring about "us"), because we already have a negative answer.

I hope it helped to understand why this dialog looks so odd to some people.

There's already a very negative option if he doesn't ascend. You can tell him you're surprised because you thought he was "just a power hungry mad man."

The option to say you're not his pet is there to display that this is how he sees his partner now, and if he says it's a just a joke you can say it sounded like he meant it. Your character can pick up on it or not, but it's there to reveal a facet of his character.

This option still does not allow me to leave scene. Need an option to interrupt the scene. It's strange this is one of the few scenes that you can't interrupt in any way. You can't refuse go to the cemetery. You have three "yes" options. I remember a meme with Mass Effect, where you have three answers that mean the same thing, but sound different. They could really write:

1. Yes
2. OK.
3. Of course

and this would be the same as what we have in the game now.

I would have agreed to use this option if it was interrupting scene and Astarion was angry, instead of tolerating my aggression. But this is not happening. It's as if you didn't have the opportunity to leave scene with Ascended Astarion until the moment he tells you to kneel.

And even when you're in the cemetery, you can be rude to him again, but it won't interrupt the scene. That's what I don't really like.

I don't remember any instance where he would show regret, he won't stop talking about how good he feels and how he wants Tav to share in all the splendour. The only provoker in this situation is Tav. You could roleplay your chara being fully on board with his schemes throughout the game but in this single scene suddenly you're not anymore. There is zero conflict if you tell him you want his bite or his body. If he is provoked that's when he actually lashes out at Tav for being a hypocrite (and rightfully so).
Tav is the last piece of the puzzle to his vampiric dream. If he convinces Tav then in his eyes he becomes better than Cazador, because he never had anyone who didn't hate him, actually cared for him and someone he could truly trust. I don't think he ever fully trusts Tav until they become his spawn. Even Cazador will say that to Tav if they go to him alone. That Astarion's distrust in everyone is his only redeeming quality. Astarion pretty much admits it by telling Tav they'd earned a little bit of trust, but only a little. In a banter with Lae'zel post-ascension he tells her he needed someone he could trust and that now he knows Tav will never turn on him. There is another one with Karlach where he says he has one person who trusts him completely and that's enough for him. Spawn Astarion tells Tav he'd be ok with them going their own way, which is a lie. He's terrified of being alone after that year of silence. I'm sure if he could he would prevent them from leaving him like AA does.
To me it's the other way around, he approaches Tav because he's confident enough they would agree to his proposal but also worried they would change their mind once the dust settles and they actually do see him as the monster he thinks he is and break up with. If he manages to secure them before they possibly start feeling guilty then he has nothing to fear anymore.
If Tav does break up with him, he never blames them for helping him become the vampire lord. He bashes them for rejecting his gift and not wanting to enjoy life with him, and tells them they'd regret leaving him.

I would also like to see the option to call him out and ask what it's really about. I think he'd say what he does post-breakup that he was really trying with Tav in the only way he knows how. The ultimatum should also stay there, however, because there exists an ending where he lets Tav stay mortal for a while, there should be an option to ask him for some time to decide. I think he would be impatient and just give them one day, approaching them the next long rest.


The way the dialogue is framed makes it seem like Tav is preparing to break up with him and is starting off gently before getting to the meaty part. If you could roleplay agreeing with him all the time, you should still be able to do that here. This is plain simple imposition of the writer's idea of Tav onto the player and taking away roleplay from a roleplaying game.
If we go down the angsty Tav route, why can't Tav actually feel sorry for him and say "What have I done? It's my fault you're like this now, I've created a monster". Heck, you could even roleplay Tav as a self-sacrificing hero who wanted to help him but then threw the morals out the window for him, and decides to spend eternity with him as a form of punishment for their crime, while hoping they can still guide him to not go full evil.


That's a very finite and black-and-white thing to say. He is as trapped as he allows himself to be. At that point the only thing in his way would be a mental blockage. There are no external limiting factors anymore. I think the story is more potent and interesting if he becomes powerful but proves he's not another Cazador, instead of being scared of his own shadow and denying himself just to please Tav.

Basically, Astarion's writer took this as an opportunity to impose some kind of morality message onto the player instead of letting the player roleplay how they want.

It's weird looking back at EA because everyone was like "this game is too geared towards evil" or "this game will have great evil paths." In the end, it ends up punishing evil paths and evil characters, (The spoiler is vague but just in case).

I can appreciate a theme or message in the writing, but I don't appreciate being given the illusion of choice in roleplaying and then being railroaded.

I'm not even an AA player, but I can sympathize with the frustration of those players, especially since everyone ends up patronizing them and telling them they're enjoying their fiction wrong.

The other crappy thing that was discussed on the forums about this exchange and actually the whole path is that as soon as Astarion ascends you cannot even tell him you love him. You can only ask him for a bite and sex or create conflict. The game assumes you're a selfish asshole who pursues him for their own goals or is terrified of him and has buyer's regret. It doesn't allow you to roleplay otherwise. The only semi-romantic option is telling him you hoped he'd learned to love you, but it still doesn't specify that you do. You can only lecture him about how you loved him before ascension.

200% this! I loved his character even more after the ritual and I wanted my MC to say it beyond “gimme your body.”

My RP is all for that, but love still plays a part too and it sucks that they didn’t include it as an option

I think it's because writer wants to show that vampire emotions are changing and now feelings are expressed in lust (just a guess). But, as I said, it can be shown through Astarion. Use our characters for this... sloppy.

During the confrontation Tav is mortal, so I think it's still just the game making assumptions that Tav is selfish and shallow from that moment on. It's sloppy for many reasons.
And if that's what they wanted to portray they've done it poorly because, despite AA becoming more arrogant and possessive, he also shows more love and thoughtfulness when Tav agrees to spend eternity with him and stays loyal to him. AA actually hints that they are basically married, unlike spawn who never defines the relationship.

O wow, you’re totally right. Unlike Durge, Tav has no way of confessing they love him. At best they can tell him they care about him. That’s really sloppy.

Durge can confess they’re in love during the resist the urge to kill your companion scene, and they again have the option to reaffirm their love after rejecting Bhaal.

Yeah, but this is the problem, because this is not some adventure game with fixed characters, this is a roleplaying game where I should be able to determine the intentions of my own character. Which I could in relation to Astarion up to this point. But somehow in this conversation the only options I got are for my character to be the person Astarion's low self-esteem (and it seems the writer) expects me to be:

- The one only seeing him as a sex doll (I want you. I want your body)
- The one only using him for gaining power (I want to be a vampire, like you)
- The morality preacher who doesn't accept him for who he is (You can tell me that you've learned something from all this)
- The easily provoked one who will break up with him, because of course they will sooner or later (I am not your pet.)

Which forces my Tav or Durge to act out of character if their intention for helping him to ascend was something else entirely. Maybe they wanted him to get the ultimate revenge through poetic justice, maybe they wanted him to get as much power as possible to be able to defend himself from every threat, maybe they wanted him to be able to walk in the sun even after they finally get rid of the tadpoles, maybe a durge wanted him to be powerful enough to defend himself from them after the durge scene in act 2. There are countless non-selfish reasons to help him ascend and maybe even a selfish one that does not fit the presented mold (the evil tav/durge who wants to rule the world with his vampire lord).

Those dialogue options also totally negate the "I did it because I wanted what was best for you" line and make it seem like a lie.

As a lot of posters have already said - there is no option that fits a supportive Tav/Durge. But this is a roleplaying game, it is not the writer's job to drop their moral cake on me and railroad me and my character into a one way street. The writer's job is to give me enough agency that I can ignore the illusion of choice. (It's the same problem with the graveyard scene where the three options are 50 colours of yes)

Astarion expects Tav/Durge to have selfish reasons because everyone does in his worldview. Why can't we surprise him by saying "I did not do this because I want something out of this. I just wanted to help you because I genuinely care about you." Because up to this point you could tell him you care about him. But somehow by helping him ascend our characters suddenly become selfish beings who actually never loved him, just his body/power/a made-up version of him.

You can still maintain this eerie atmosphere that foreshadows a possible continuation of the cycle of abuse in Tav's/Durge's future, but at least let me play my character. There's already too few dialogues in Act 3 as is. I don't want to be railroaded in them.

And speaking of the dialogue itself - you can really see the agenda the writer was pushing here. Who in the world says "I want you. I want your body." when telling your partner you're horny?

Well, that was a lot of text just to ask for one measly dialogue option, haha. But there have been very few instances in this game where I felt railroaded in the dialogue when it came to roleplaying my character. So this stuck out a lot.

Finally a sane answer here.

10 logical counterarguments have already been given to this answer.

u know what i've changed my mind you should have the option to kick astarion in the balls when he tells you he had to claw his way out of his grave

he's trauma dumping and it's problematic

wow I'm sorry that I want to play a role-playing game, and not read a Kinetic Novels. =((((((

I thought it’s relatively obvious that the ascended ending sets up Astarion as the next Cazador and, in case of a vampire bite, a “master - slave” dynamic (same one Cazador and Astarion had) between Astarion and the player, hence the dialogue options.


The narrative also makes it clear that his story is about abuse (it’s really explicitly stated) and it would be a bit weird to be happy about him never getting out of the abusive circle.

I don’t know what OP’s RP reason was for ascending Astarion, but there are a few answers here, which made me think some people understand the ascended relationship as a consensual sub-dom dynamic, and it’s just not the story.

The problem is not what Astarion's story is about, or how Astarion behaves. Astarion is fine. His storyline is fine. No one is asking for an option to be happy that he's trapped in a cycle (an argument could be made that the player character doesn't even realize Astarion's still stuck in that cycle but since people insist on metagaming everything these days I guess that's not an option lol). Telling Astarion you don't need anything from him rather than starting an argument or asking to be made into a vampire/for sex is not about being happy he's not "free" or whatever. It's about the player's ability to say 'I don't need anything from you', which is a neutral statement that doesn't express any happiness as far as I can tell. If you can tell me why it does, please do in case I'm missing something. Also regardless of what the future dynamic of Astarion and the player is, it should not affect the player's dialogue options yet. Unless the ascension somehow changed them as well and the game failed to mention that, and that's why we don't have a neutral dialogue option here.

The problem people have is that they are being railroaded in how they are allowed to roleplay their character in this situation, namely either being forced to create conflict with him, or either wanting power or asking for sex (which is just... let's say annoying to be civil, after everything with Astarion's storyline). Imagine if you were forced to be mean to spawn Astarion and were forced to ask him for sex or complain about how you'd have preferred he ascends after all; you wouldn't be happy about that, would you? (though the way you're railroaded into being nice to him in that scenario and how you can't break up with him until after the cemetery scene is it's own discussion) It's the same thing here; you do not have an option to say you don't need anything from Astarion, which is what most people talking about this want. It's perfectly fine for Astarion to force you into either breaking up with him to becoming his spawn. It's perfectly fine for him to be toxic if he wants to be (it's also perfectly fine for people to hc the relationship as consensual sub/dom dynamic, and who's to say it's not if you're okay with being bossed around since the game ends the moment the tadpole which keeps the player safe from the whole mind control thing is gone, and we don't see what happens afterwards). What's not perfectly fine is the writers forcing you into playing a specific character after all the freedom you've had so far. All they'd need to do is add a single dialogue option into this one dialogue tree that would still lead to the same conversations it does now (Astarion pressing you into becoming his spawn), and the problem would be solved.

tl;dr: people wanting the option to say 'I don't need anything from you' is not affecting Astarion's storyline or the narrative in anyway, it's a neutral statement that doesn't express happiness, and insisting it does either is kinda weird.

I gave a few examples in my post higher up that have nothing to do with a wish to be in a sub/dom relationship (I'd even go so far as to assume that it's the least likely reason for most people who choose that path - not saying there's anything wrong with wanting that kind of relationship, either).

The player character does not know what will happen to Astarion when he does the ritual. For all they know he'd be the same person they fell in love with/befriended, just more powerful (there's even a dialogue option that states exactly that). What we as players know and what our characters know are two wholly different things.

Your explanation is an example of meta-gaming (when you act on information your character doesn't have). We are asking for a solution to let us roleplay our character without the writer dictating what our characters' intentions were. No one is asking for them to rewrite Astarion's narrative.

I understad that not everyone is into heavy roleplaying when playing a game like this and a lot of people self-insert (I usually don't), but for us roleplayers a railroading dialogue like this can feel quite frustrating. Especially since it was working out fine up until that pivotal moment.

RP is always restricted to >10 options. On several occasions, the player is forced to make serious decisions without a real neutral choice (this is true not just for romance or Astarion dialogues, but for all origin characters)

This post-ascension conversation doesn’t exist in a vacuum either, there are several previous conversations, that ask the player to seriously consider what the ascension ritual is, why Astarion wants to do it, and how vampires behave. By this time the player should be aware that ascension is his “bad” ending and have a reason for going through with it.

There isn’t a “I don’t want anything from you” option, because that option is convincing him not to ascend.


Even during my first playthrough, there were a lot of signs of what the ascension ritual does and what can be expected after. There is roleplaying and there is ignoring information on purpose.

You are convinced of your opinion, About Cazador 2.0, and so on and so forth. What are you trying to prove to people who just want more options for roleplay?

Moderators, please note that a person does not just express his opinion, he comes to a certain topic and imposes his point of view.

You're wrong. An option that convinces him not to ascend "Think about all these people" and then "I want another life for you." It has nothing to do with "I don't need anything from you." The bottom line is that you can perform a ritual without romance, so you add some unnecessary subtext. We have a good answer in the first dialog "I just wanted you to be happy". Why couldn't a similar branch be added to the second dialog? Personally, I did the ritual knowing it was an evil act. If you haven't forgotten, we can play as an evil character in the game. And even in this case, the last thing I expect after ritual that my character will "want Astarion's body". There is no hint of sex or barter in the ritual, which is logical, because you can perform the ritual without romance.

There are no hints that you should be angry because of the ritual, especially if you are an evil character and you are satisfied with evil deeds. However, this does not mean that you want sex or turn into a vampire. These are very specific answers. So we have two very specific answers, and two obviously offended ones. So yes, this is a problem.

Yet his actual author calls it an evil and not a bad ending.

This cycle of abuse card is getting old. In case you haven't noticed the game also shows that each generation the cycle starts waning and is bound to break eventually. Cazador's master was much worse than he was, Astarion is a much a better guy than Cazador was. Plus, AA also isn't a true vampire like the others before him but a whole new being entirely that's not suffering the same vampiric drawbacks that were driving Cazador insane. He had a time away from his master where he could learn more pleasant aspects to life - love, friendship, kindness, camraderie. Equating him to Cazador 2.0 is just doing the character a disservice.
Let's not forget how he completely trashes Cazador's and Vellioth's rule that says "power comes from solitude, to share with others is to be weak, and to be weak is to fail... and die." He shares his blood with Tav and everything he possesses. Yeah, total clone of Cazador, lol.
Besides, there is more to Astarion than just him being traumatised. If you want, the game allows you to roleplay as thinking that he is trapped but doesn't allow you to express genuine feelings for him and to be supportive of his own decisions.

Let's flip this around, shall we? If the people here are enjoying the narrative taking away players' choices so much they must also be super happy

I would just like to say (again) that the option to tell him you didn't want anything from him is fine, but to me it is disingenuous to say that's all that's been asked for here. The first page of this thread talks about how there should more romantic and cute scenes and dialogue options, about how the writers are imposing their morality on the player, about wanting to be able to stay in the relationship if you don't want to become a slave/spawn, etc. The initial request was for more dialogue options but there was also speculation about why we were given/not given the options we were.

So to suddenly be like, omg we just asked for a single line of dialogue and now people are imposing their views on us is like. Idk ya'll are moving the goalpost and trying to make people seem unreasonable for expressing their opinions about why the things you discussed aren't in the game.

For example, there was expression of discontent that you can't skip the last scene of his quest if he doesn't ascend. There was speculation it was because the writers were trying to force their view of the endings on the player. My response was that it's more likely the option isn't there because almost no one would choose it, so they'd need to write, act, record and code both Astarion's initial response and the inevitable fallout from that the next day for something people wouldn't choose for roleplay reasons. They'd only choose it to see what happens. It's a waste of time and resources. Whereas ascended Astarion is asking for something a significant amount of players would choose not to do. So yes, I think asking for all of that is unreasonable and it's not really about wanting more roleplay options. It's about wanting to balance the score between the two endings because you guys feel personally slighted by the way the narrative frames them.

Talking about the narrative they've constructed is on topic because it has to do with why the things you guys talked about aren't in the game. And when you talk about the writers trying to "impose morals" on the player people are explaining why they disagree with that.

I'll duplicate to you again what I asked. One positive response and one negative. Ascended Astarion has a positive answer in the first dialogue, "I just wanted you to be happy." There is nothing terrible if there is a similar option in the second dialog.



So I do not know what "more moments" you are talking about. You didn't read my first post. Look, only 3% of players play in an evil way. And yet evil options exist for them. It doesn't matter how small the percentage of players who choose the negative option in the cemetery is. This option should still be for a role-playing game. If everything is done for the majority, then you will get a wheel of three option like BioWare have. Do you want such a future for role-playing games? I'm not.

It won't be worse for anyone if they add more variations for the role-playing game. I would still like a positive option, but I will also be happy with a neutral one. At a minimum, we need a transitional option to remain mortal. We already know game has an ending with a mortal, but there is no dialogue that would lead to it. Not sleeping immediately after the ritual is a strange condition. it's complicated by itself.

All the suggested dialogue options for Tav should still lead to Astarion pressuring them into becoming his spawn, because that's his ultimate goal when he initiates the conversation. No one's asking for extra cute scenes. And if we did get them on top of that, what would be the harm?

'Now I just want to get rid of the tadpoles' - Astarion could say: 'That's the next step, of course. Thanks to the ritual our chances of survival have grown exponentially... And they still can grow further. You could become something more as well, my dear. One little bite...'
"I want to be with you' - Astarion could say: 'Darling, that's exactly what I want as well. To be with you, always. And I have the means to make it a beautiful reality. We could be together for an eternity...'
'You don't have to do anything for me, I'm just glad he won't bother us anymore and we can relax now. We're finally free of him.' - Astarion could say: 'Oh my dear, you truly are the sweetest. We are free, yes, and we'll never have to worry about it anymore. Just like I never have to fear anyone again... so can you become stronger and see all your foes fall before you. You could be so much more..."
'I think we should toast to our victory. I've been saving a bottle just for the occasion.' - Astarion could say: 'You are just so adorable. You even thought of that... awww. We'll do it eventually of course. But don't you want this night to be truly memorable and one of a kind? You could become mine forever...'
'We could go for a midnight stroll in some dark alleys and look for trouble. Not like I'll have to worry about getting hurt with a mighty vampire lord by my side.' - Astarion could say: 'Haha, what a delightful idea, we should definitely do it one night. You could actually become untouchable yourself, you know. I can make it happen... You could join me in immortality and be mine forever...'

I'm not sure of all the details, but from what I've heard the author of that scene is doing it. There was an outrage on the internet when she publicly said that she believes the player in that situation has failed to see Astarion as more than a sex object up to the point that they even want to become a toy themselves. You can clearly see the reflection of her words in the game. Having an idea of what an NPC character is and should act like and writing them a certain way is ok but actually deciding on players' motivation in a very narrow-minded, wild and cruel way and enforcing it is not.

Again, there is nothing wrong with an extra option to delay the transformation into a spawn due to the possible ending that already exists in the game. It's certain Astarion will give them an ultimatum soon, because he's impatient and possessive and there's simply no way a vampire lord would want to see his lover get sick, age and die, while he can prevent it from happening.


I believe it was during the last Panel from Hell before launch when Larian was asked how there are so many scenes and possibilities and that some of them are so niche that maybe only 0.2% of people will see them and if they're not sad about it. Their response indicated that they want even this 0.2% to experience the game the way they want and have the means to be thruthful to their personal story. So even if only 0.2% of people genuinely wanted to go for that option they should still have it. At least for consistency and freedom to roleplay reasons.
I was actually taken aback when I saw the option to kick him in the balls for the first time. I was thinking, "who on earth would do that?". But then I figured some would and I still appreciated it that Larian included it.

I read through the entire dialogue tree for this conversation, and where would a second neutral option lead? How could the dialogue tree and later scenes look like?

If they actually put anything like this in the game, I would be truly ecstatic!

Ignoring information on purpose is part of roleplaying, though, otherwise you are meta-gaming. The only information we get about the ritual itself is what Raphael tells us and what we see under the palace on our way to Cazador. But no matter what, the characters don't get enough information to know that Astarion will make a total personality flip after the ritual and become his worst self in an instant. Some more morally inclined characters might, more evil, selfish, oblivious or naive characters might not (or might not care). I guess we just have to agree to disagree as we seem to see the act of roleplaying quite differently.


It is not supposed to lead anywhere new, it is just flavour to let us roleplay our character with a different intention than what the writer railroads us into. It should sit in the same tree as the "I want your body" line. Just a "I don't want anything. I'm just glad you got what you wanted (alt. I'm just glad you're finally safe)." to which Astarion can reply in his best condescending manner: "You're just precious, aren't you? But I really want to do something for you. Don't you want the gift of eternity? One more bite and we could be together forever." Roleplay flavoured, narrative upheld.

I would like to agree with Nyloths first post. But disagree with another request.

I speak for myself: I am role-playing a good character and the positive meant (?) answers on Astarion's question "So, tell me what you desire. What can I do for my dearest pet?" are more than odd to me (or let's say for my character).
1. "I want to be a vampire, like you." (My good Character never thought or wished to become an ascended Vampire, neither I, this is so out of the blue and out of character)
2. "I want you. I want your body." (After the act 2 emotional romance scene, which good and caring Tav would ever answer "I want your body?", even if deep inside they would like to sleep with A. This is so out of character, too, for my good Tav.

So I also would like to have a positive answer (for a good Tav) like: "Being with you" (instead of "I want your body".) And everything would be fine.
Astarion then could laugh and say the same thing like to the 2. answer, just : Of course, my sweet. "But don't you want more... etc. One more bite...etc. ..To be mine? Forever?"

A. Astarion's ending is fine for me. My Tav (when romancing him) being forced to be his spawn is totally fine for me and I would never ever want this to be changed or having an option to stay mortal in this scene. Like it is now, it's a great power-dynamic story. So yes in this, I do not agree with the request of rewriting the whole scene for having the option not to become his spawn. I don't want this great story to be destroyed. This would change A. Astarion. And he is, how he is, he wants to control. I don't want him less evil. For the "equal" thing we have the other ending. So this is my opinion.

I don't know why the discussion had to lead to this odd "Astarion becomes Cazador. Noone chooses this ending." (?), as if this is a fact. Wrong. I chose it. And I will choose it again. Also equating Astarion with Cazador doesn't do him justice.

There are already enough examples in this topic. It could lead to the same variant of the answer "But if you want the gift of immortality, then I can give you this." This option gives out "I want to be a vampire like you." Add a neutral option like "Now I want to deal with the tadpoles" or "You don't have to repay me with something." He may answer a little differently, but at the end add what I said above.

Once again, I'm tired of repeating this, but if Astarion perceives it as a deal that doesn't mean writer can use my character to show this. I can answer Astarion in the first act in a similar way, when he offers sex, that he does not need to pay for "my services". My character doesn't change from the ritual in any way, so why did my answers suddenly change?

I'm not asking to rewrite full scene, you can already stay mortal with him in a relationship and ask him to turn you at the end of the game. But for this you need do some tricks, I asked to simplify this point, since the phrase for a mortal already exists in the game.

Dont want to offend Nobody.. But
Jesus Astarion did not talk enought already ?!
(he and Gale in all my Games im just a Scunbag and always cut what they have to say becouse i think they talk too much already..xD)
as far as i Know from the Fenstarion Mod Dude coment..
He Claims that Astarion so far is the Origin with the Most Lines..
Something like 1500 lines of dialog..
(thats actually the reason he used IA to Simulate the Voice as Female..)

Ahah, you're right, he really has the most content in the game. But I can't help myself. In fact, I'm asking to complete our character's phrases, not his!

I see your point. It's nice that they even prepared something for this at the end of the game. But people choosing this trick will miss his best cutscene and a lot of content.

Adding this option to the romance cutscene will have to change a lot. It is Astarion's goal to make his lover his (!) spawn (if you don't accept this, he will break up). Not even this scene needs to be changed then, also the s..scene and "on your knees" scene afterwards respectively they have to cut these scenes off for those who choose this new option. Also, IF there is the possibility to convince Astarion to not become his spawn.. the answers at the "on your knees" scene will not make sense anymore. On the one hand, you would be able to convince him to stay mortal and also have the romance with him, but on the other hand, in the "kneel down"-scene you cannot say "no" anymore? Because this will lead to a break-up.

Plus they have to cut off all the afterward conversations, which would not make sense anymore for people convincing him that they will not become his spawn:"You are so beautiful and you will be beautiful forever." - "What happened?" "You made me your spawn, what is going to happen to me?" etc. Adding this one option will lead to a whole series of problems. It is not just one answer.

And it will go on. So if they would add the option for staying mortal for Tav (but still staying Astarion's lover), they need to cut off all this content for players choosing this answer. And these players choosing this option (I guess it will be a lot then), not knowing about this thread, will then complain: "What? That's it? Why is Astarion not saying a thing after this? Why there is no cutscene anymore?" and they will come to this forum and ask for creating new content for mortal Tav. .. And if not already before, then at the latest this whole thing will break his great story into pieces. That's why I don't support this idea.

But, as I said, I will support the first request: Adding a positive answer for a good Tav, because this would and should lead to the same cutscenes and content and would not change Astarion.

(Sorry, if there are mistakes, I am not a native english speaker)

Either way it would be considerable change, which would likely be picked by only a few players.

And yeah, I know it would only be one line, but there are some bigger implications about the follow up lines and scenes.

And as someone pointed out there are origin characters with way less content or undercooked stories, which should be more of a focus.

What would the considerable change be? What would the bigger implications be? No seriously, tell us, because so far you have not offered anything but vague statements.

I know writing fiction is hard, but as someone who gets paid to do it, I can say that the requested 'I just want to be with you' line specifically would go a long way to hammer home how bad the situation actually is. Do you know why? Because the player would have just given Astarion the perfect thing to use against them to get them to agree to be his spawn. He would offer to turn the player like he normally does, and if you so much as hesitate he can slap you in the face with 'but you just said you want to be with me', and now you're stuck in a situation where you either own up to wanting to be with him and let him turn you, or he breaks up with you and gets to call you a liar because clearly you didn't mean it if you don't want to be his spawn. So I don't see what the problem with this change is to you, since it keeps the abuse narrative going in a very effective way. It's actually more effective than anything we have right now, soo... yeah.

If we had an 'I don't want anything from you' line, Astarion could just go 'that's cute, but how about I make you immortal?', and the dialogue would be basically the same it's now. Lot less changes here, but it's also less effective at shining light to how toxic the whole thing is. Still a good neutral option to have, though.

As for the ability to stay with him and not be turned to a spawn (which is not mentioned in the original post and is not something I'd personally care for because I do think that Astarion's ultimatum is important to his character consistency since he's still, you know, Astarion), that's already in the game, you just have to go through specific hoops to get it. Implementing it to the dialogue discussed here would be a big change and the main reason I think this will always remain an fun 'what if' thing, but it's easy to keep the theme of abuse going with this as well by giving the player maybe one or two long rests to come to a decision, and then force it upon them. If you make it to the end game without giving him an answer, then you make the decision in the last dialogue. But like I said, this is a change I don't think would ever be implemented since it would require a lot more work and while it would be nice, the ultimatum is there for a reason, but in the theoretical world where this did happen it still wouldn't change the core theme of the ascension path, as you'd still have to give him the yes or no answer which leads to you either becoming his spawn or breaking up with him.

And as for changes to the other characters, yes they need more content, but we're not discussing that here. We're discussing Astarion. Let's stay on topic and not drag issues not related to the matter at hand into this to try to redirect or distract the conversation. There are posts discussing the other characters already all over the internet, and you can always add to those posts if you want.

Well, judging by that one writer's comments, the intention was to show they player as toxic, not (just) the relationship. Which doesn't really work in roleplay, but alas.

So now instead of something more effective we have "i want your body", and honestly after this I will never be able to take that scene or that sentence seriously.

That’s your interpretation, not everyone views Astarion’s ascension as continuing the cycle of abuse and I certainly don’t view it that way.

What we’re asking for is representation because our narrative has been pushed into a corner of ‘glorifying abuse’ and ‘continuing the cycle’ and all this other nonsense which has absolutely nothing to do with why we chose to ascend him in the first place.

Oh no I'm 100% with you! I like his ascended path, I don't think he'll be abusive, and would like a more positive/neutral dialogue option so that I don't have to pick a fight with Astarion or ask for sex or to be made into a vampire. I would very much like to sit whoever approved of the dialogue options in this situation down and ask them why they thought pushing their far too narrow views of what the player must be roleplaying as in this moment was a good idea, and then explain to them why they're wrong and that there should be at least one neutral/positive option for the player to select because the player is not the one that just ascended; they should still be the same person they were before that whole ordeal, and the dialogue should take into consideration those who ascend him without wanting something from him and who don't have a problem with how he's acting right now, which the two options that aren't the 'give me something in return' options don't reflect.

I phrased my response the way I did because the person I was responding has said earlier that a neutral/positive response to Astarion would "ruin the narrative of the cycle of abuse". I answered in a way that would alleviate their concerns about this because I didn't feel like restarting the 'but the abuse narrative!!' bit again and because if the that narrative needs to be important or something, it can still be done easily with a neutral player response. Ideally a neutral response from the player would obviously get a positive response from Astarion, and the whole conversation could go over a lot smoother than it does now. Granted I also like myself a toxic ship so I don't mind Astarion being the way he is in this scene (just the lack of the neutral/positive dialogue option for the players), and I've always read Astarion's insistence on turning you into his spawn right now on the spot as his insecurity about the relationship rearing its head, coupled with him riding the high the ascension gave him so he's doing the one thing he knows will ensure you won't leave him (it'd be nice if he remembered he could just say he's worried about this tho) and not as him having magically turned into the next Cazador and wanting you as his spawn so he can take control of you down the line. Questionable for sure, but not anywhere near what people insist we're supposed to read it as.

Ahhh I gotcha! I completely misread that lolz, sorry! <3

Ahhh I gotcha! I completely misread that lolz, sorry! <3

From a game design perspective:
You probably noticed that the game constantly asks you (the player, not the character) to provide a reason for the character’s actions. There are also moments when you (the player) have to make decisions (all RP options lead to something final) or provide a reason for your character’s actions. The game also lets the player (not the character) know that maybe something is not the best decision.
From a game design perspective, this conversation with Astarion is the game asking the player “Hey, so you’ve been playing this game for quite some time, romanced this pixel character, and did something that was flagged as a big action. This is the final beat for his entire arc and for this romance. Why did you do it? What’s the angle here?” You (the player) are asking the game to be able the say “no reason”.

You are asking the game to prolong a limbo dynamic for your character and not fully close the romance. Which is fine. But clearly, the ascension is flagged as an evil event (probably the highest body count event btw) and you want to add a “neutral” flag. If there is a neutral flag here, it’s only logical to add neutral flags throughout the game for other big, high-stakes moments, which are flagged as an evil act.

They'd only need to add a persuasion check to convince him. He could then agree to wait and note that he doesn't want to wait long (he could approach Tav the next long rest and say that he can't stand the suspense and wants them to decide already) or outright say they have a day to decide. Then the romance scene could stay as it is without any modifications. There could also be a very difficult persuasion check to ask him to wait till the worm problem is over and he could simply offer a night of passion without the bite (it would be the same scene just cut shorter). You wouldn't have the conversation about being turned but he could still say all the other stuff he normally does in there (talking about his new powers, what's next for him, etc). You could then ask him to turn you in the epilogue like you can already and he'd say the same thing: 'I thought you'd never ask.'
I don't think it would be that hard to implement.


But that's the problem, the game is not asking us why we did it. It's assuming we did for a) or b). It assumes you only have shallow, selfish reasons.


We are asking the game to be able to say more things, all of them telling him we did it because we love him and care about him and want to enjoy our time with him, not that we only lust after him and his powers.


No one's asking for any limbo dynamic? I'm not sure what you're talking about. What we are asking for is for the game to be consistent and to give us back the options we had up until that scene.

The writer assumes we are doing this for his body or our selfishness. I think a lot of people do it for other reasons. Because he's asking us to help. We want to help him. Not to teach some kind of morality or lesson, not to get something in return, but just to help. The ritual looks much better to the actions in a friendly relationship just because of this dialogue.

So we're moving to game design now? I see what you're doing but okay, I've got time to correct you.

From a game design perspective the flag for Astarion's ascension/spawn path goes up at Cazador's dungeon (and by the way it's not a good/evil flag because the game doesn't have a morality system; if I recall correctly it's flagged as spawn and vampire lord), not in the romance dialogue. Moreover, as this game doesn't have a morality system like say, Mass Effect to use a very simplistic example, your (the player's) character does not have good/evil flags attached to them, and neither does anything else in the game for that matter. You are fully able to be as all over the board with your morality and decisions as you wish, because the game does not flag them in any way beyond potential consequences for said decision (like if a character dies or something). The only flag the dialogue being discussed here is concerned with is whether or not the romance continues, and a neutral option does not affect that because the dialogue ends with you making a decision on the matter (Astarion romance true or Astarion romance false). So yes, I should be able to say "no reason" because the flag this moment is concerned about is not "why did you do this" but "continue romance or not", and the deciding factor for that is whether you become Astarion's spawn or not, not whatever your reason for ascending him is (in case you need further proof of this, be aware that if you start fighting Astarion, you don't have to provide a reason for why you ascended him, you just have to be an ass to him for no reason).

Moreover, if the game asks you, the player, to make a decision, it is by design asking the player character to make a decision. This is a roleplaying game -- a roleplaying game that gives you the freedom to play however you want, might I add. You can save the Grove and be an absolute monster afterwards, and no morality flag goes off. You save every single tiefling and slaughter everyone else, and no flag about your morality goes up. You can keep Shadowheart Sharran and be a perfect angel for the rest of the game, and no morality flag goes up. So since this game is not concerned about the player's morality, it should give me a neutral option in a dialogue that's only concerned with romance flags.

Also, it's roleplaying. You're supposed to make decisions that fit your character, not decisions that you with your meta-gaming knowledge would make (unless that's your playstyle in which case you do you, but don't assume that others don't want to actually roleplay their characters, and that the game only caters to those who meta-game every decision). You are in control of your character and their decisions, yes, but the game doesn't make a separation with you and your character because that's just dumb. This isn't a game that's bad enough to break the fourth wall in this one moment to demand the player justify why their character behaved in a certain way and what your irl meta-gamed reason for this decision was. The character will have to make that justification, and for a lot of people that justification is "because Astarion asked you to help him do this", because that's how they roleplay their character. You're just going to have to accept that, I'm afraid.

Also as a side note I would hope it's the highest body count event because that's hilarious and I should be able to commit more mass murder for my digital romance options.

Totally support the OP here

My character loves Astarion, wants what will make him happy and doesn't give a damn what anyone else thinks of their choices.
So yeah I want to be able to tell him as much. What happens in their future is in the future, as of right this minute Tav doesn't know what any of the conversation choices will lead to (without meta gaming).

At this precise moment and in answer to 'Tell me what you desire'

'I just want to be with you my love'.

Simple

Totally support the OP here

My character loves Astarion, wants what will make him happy and doesn't give a damn what anyone else thinks of their choices.
So yeah I want to be able to tell him as much. What happens in their future is in the future, as of right this minute Tav doesn't know what any of the conversation choices will lead to (without meta gaming).

At this precise moment and in answer to 'Tell me what you desire'

'I just want to be with you my love'.

Simple

Totally support the OP here

My character loves Astarion, wants what will make him happy and doesn't give a damn what anyone else thinks of their choices.
So yeah I want to be able to tell him as much. What happens in their future is in the future, as of right this minute Tav doesn't know what any of the conversation choices will lead to (without meta gaming).

At this precise moment and in answer to 'Tell me what you desire'

'I just want to be with you my love'.

Simple

Totally support the OP here

My character loves Astarion, wants what will make him happy and doesn't give a damn what anyone else thinks of their choices.
So yeah I want to be able to tell him as much. What happens in their future is in the future, as of right this minute Tav doesn't know what any of the conversation choices will lead to (without meta gaming).

At this precise moment and in answer to 'Tell me what you desire'

'I just want to be with you my love'.

Simple

Totally support the OP here

My character loves Astarion, wants what will make him happy and doesn't give a damn what anyone else thinks of their choices.
So yeah I want to be able to tell him as much. What happens in their future is in the future, as of right this minute Tav doesn't know what any of the conversation choices will lead to (without meta gaming).

At this precise moment and in answer to 'Tell me what you desire'

'I just want to be with you my love'.

Simple

I don't really care about the extra dialogue if Larian's willing to do it, but those of you that want to skip the requirements for continuing the Ascended Astarion romance (being a spawn) are hilarious. The character is as he was written. You do not have complete and total roleplay freedom in this game because that would be impossible to code. There has to be a framework set up for the game, and you work within that framework with however many choices/options. If you're looking for much more roleplay freedom play tabletop dnd or some online thing, you aren't going to get everything you could ever possibly want in a video game.

Oh I don't know, we got an ending party after all

There is no point in further discussion.

If you guys honestly feel like the game does not restrict any of your other RP options throughout the gameplay, more power to you. If you guys don't feel like there are markers for an evil play-through, it's legit. (Larian made me feel terrible during evil playthroughs or committing evil acts while in a generally good playthrough, but alas it's just me) If you guys want unlimited RP or other flavors of RP, there are plenty of opportunities out there.

I still feel like it's an overindulgent ask (which goes against the general feel of the game) but that's just me.

It's already in the game. This is not what I want, this is what we were really given lol. How could they add voiced phrases for this without planning it?

Speaking of the "mortal ending".
That's another reason why all this dialogue is so weak.
If you go to the final battle, and ask to make Tav a vampire afterwards, Astarion "approves".

And there's a dialogue here:
Player: Actually, no. This isn't what I want.
Astarion: This isn't what you want yet. I'm sure you'll come around in your own good time.
Astarion: But until the moment's right, we can still be together. We can still taste all the delights of this world.
Astarion: We have a beautiful, bloody future to look forward to, my love. I can't be sure what it holds for us, but I know one thing.
Astarion: This is going to be fun.

He reacts much more calmly, and most importantly he doesn't break off the relationship. The whole third act is going to take a long time to improve. The romance with Minthara, too, so. With Lord Astarion, details can be added as well.
I think after the ritual it's worth adding "conviction" to wait. And if it fails, it will be yes or no.
Then it would lead to the already existing "mortal ending" without skipping content.

Also there are no details about it in the epilogue, it's all spawn. But then you should have added that he talked Tav into it in a couple of months.
I wonder how they will build an epilogue to this ending. This part will be told by the narrator, or as some dialogue, or Tav will still remain mortal.

I was wondering how the epilogue accounted for that outcome. It's a shame to hear it's undercooked. If Tav asked to be a vampire then it's right that in the epilogue they already are a spawn, considering Astarion wants to turn them the first night after the final conversation. If they went with Tav being talked into it before the party, I think there would be complaints that there was no player choice involved. They could perhaps have another discussion about it during the party, with Astarion being impatient about the whole thing already and putting some pressure on Tav? We'll just have to wait and see.

I join and fully support the OP and everyone who loves Ascended Astarion! Even one simple classic, "I love you" would have been much better than the lines we are offered now in this dialog. It feels like the game is trying to "teach the player a lesson" by forcing them to choose a rather primitive and somewhat vulgar line about "body", just because all the other lines are completely inappropriate. I'm certainly willing to accept any challenge for Astarion's sake, but it was nice if these challenges were realistic and within the confines of a roleplay, and just making the Tavs look worse than they are is a bit odd considering the fact that all the players are adults and no one needs moralizing. All in all, Ascended Astarion's romance is beautiful, it gives a completely extraordinary emotion that no RPG has ever given before. Fixing the above points will only make the game better!

I agree with the suggestions of the first message. Although I have already adapted to what is available. I choose the lines where we argue with Astarion, and then we make peace and approach the conversion of my character into spawn, these lines with the argument even reveal Astarion to us very well, he is more honest there, or something. But I agree that there should be a more neutral or positive line, because I choose the ritual for Astarion not for benefit and not for his body, it generally sounds strange. I choose the ritual for his well-being, life as a full-fledged person, without any restrictions that spawn and ordinary vampires have. This is what Astarion wanted. I do this primarily for his, and not for myself. And of course there is such a line, but it comes through an argument, which is not very good. Here the question is specifically for our character, why he suddenly begins to be negative or lustful, although the prerequisites for carrying out the ritual are different. In this thread some person say because the authors show us that this is a bad path, but my character knew this from the very beginning and deliberately went for it for Astarion, up to this point it was possible to choose the appropriate options, and there was not a hint of lust or becoming a vampire, and now suddenly our character says that I want your body or I want to become a vampire (these are the only positive answers) this is not serious, well. In this scene, I don’t recognize my character, who was there the entire game, he was replaced here.

I support the OP's request. I do not like having my character used to make a point about an NPC. The way my Tav reacts should be down to me, not railroaded like this. So, yes, a more neutral option would be very welcome.

I agree completely.

I really don't see this as his bad path. His original creator called it his evil ending and I share that view. To me his bad endings are: getting staked, given to the Gur, becoming a zombie, getting consumed in the ritual, not receiving help with Cazador, becoming a mind flayer, etc.

My motives for helping him were exactly the same as yours. I also didn't recognise my chara in that moment and had to choose the least offensive line for her, but it still wasn't something I was happy with. All of the responses have unpleasant tones.

I've worked on a pic that summarises the lack of logic and roleplay options in this scene: https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=939054#Post939054

The "I want to become a vampire like you" answer looks even dumber if you remember how in Act 1 Astarion explained to my Tav, how to become a vampire, that you have to drink your master's blood, how to become a Spawn. And why he, as a Spawn, can walk on the sun (he can't really, it's a maggot, dumb Tav).
And now that Spawn Astarion is becoming an Ascended (that's actually new), how does TAV know that Ascended can even convert? And who does that end up being? A spawn? A regular vampire right away? Or something else.