Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

I agree with everything you said.

I apologize for repeating myself here. This version of my proposal is more structured.

I don't know if Larian tried to prove and show on February 14, with AA in the fanservice 6 patch - "a story about abuse where the player is the victim"

But here are my suggestions. As well as a critique of the Tav-victim narrative line (5 point).

1. Tav steps for a kiss with Vampire Lord Astarion. Tav victim face is a logical fallacy. Fix Tav face as well, as body language for the passionate vampy-love kiss that Tav wants and chooses. (doesn't want to - won't choose, breakup is there)
2. Respectful fanservice is rougher-gentler. Like the night of the turn. It will also add a variety of dynamics. A regular kiss would be fine. Kneeling – on random\in public can be a trigger, it's intimate, need a mood. Player can sleep with all sorts of fantasy wildlife in this game. I don't think Lord Astarion would say "no", canonically. He denies one thing - leave him (and that's in question in patch 6, about it below)
3. Vice and evil are lavishly rewarded if one goes all the way and has enough intelligence, law and power. Sacrificial virtue, sometimes it will give nothing but suffering and death. People with power can do what they want if fortune is on their side - they will have power, strong feelings, care, love (even if it's totally vampiric and insane) and lucky stars for the rest of their lives. Natural phenomena, like Lightning Won't Strike.
Astarion. The Ascended Vampire is enjoying decadence, hedonism and vice in his palace with his faithful beloved consort, legend has it that their night together will be the most beautiful and the most horrible. That's the truth of the Faerun, in my humble opinion. Original Narrative, here is still present in the ending and the epilogue. Don't be afraid to tell this story.
4. Сinematic clips depending on the line of play. I've heard that promised, though more endings have been talked about at the beginning of the project. Tav-ally-lover and Astarion traveling, Tav-ally-lover and Astarion weaving webs of power and masquerading in Baldur's Gate. Tav is sad in a golden cage, Astarion (?????), sighing and sulking as in the epilogue.
Also for the Astarion Spawn depending on the choice.

5. "Tav victim and an unloving abuser" is an illogical narrative line for an romance with Lord Astarion.
Please be so kind and listen.
It’s for: exploring the darkest side of romance, more: "What if..." and fanservice to listen to Astarion hiss.
Most logical: Vicious Tav, who doesn't care what Astarion does. This Tav is worse. This Tav will carve Astarion's name on themselves like Morticia Addams.
Don't tell illogical stories, save that for the fishing game, pardon.

I don't know if Tav's face-abuse-victim was a great mistake, a personal initiative intentional, Larian's choice of the main narrative line.
I have no intention of offending anyone, but I do have the intention of defending other victims of abuse, and just wounded people who themselves give autonomy to Vampire Lord Astarion several times over.
Here is a great post talking about the psychology of people choosing this path, as it were. Even with the very laugh "you're mine", no one denied that part of the novel.

I'll try to make the my argument.
It's the Devil contract that Tav really wants. Astarion is still himself, which is canonically confirmed in the interview, so I don't think he'll surprise that Tav, his horrible features, even if he sings opera in Latin.

- Astarion acts like an immoral, manipulative, toxic ass throughout the game, he likes killing, he approves, including dialogue within the narrative - there are so many wrong things in the path of evil that it's just impossible not to understand. There's some in the path of good, too. Tav has an affair with him. By Act 3 it's clear that this man doesn't play by the rules of morality anywhere, in relationships too if given the chance and he wants.
Everything's fine - kisses, happy faces, the vampire tox-romance continues.
- Tav gives 7k for this man's happiness and sees how he approves of it and happy - break up is possible, tadpole.
- Tav realises that Astarion is offering to be his spawn, and since Astarion is immoral, if Tav agrees - there's no going back - break up is possible, tadpole.
- Tav kneels down (meme princess).
- Tav sees Astarion flashing red for the morning like a Christmas tree - tadpole, break up is possible. Tav can kill him.
- Before the tadpole is cleared, the opportunity to break up is there all game.

Does this look like a accidental choice to the good and naive Tav who could be caught in a trap in which to suffer? No, I don't think so.

The contract with the Devil is signed, Astarion has poorly concealed that he's immoral and won't value choice if given the chance. Tav just gets in the chariot with the red lanterns and says "Go" whatever Lord Astarion does in 90% of this Tav knows and doesn't care.

Please leave the story of the victim of abuse for a more realistic, logical narrative line, this romance isn't dictated by it and is crumbling like a sand castle under criticism, even 10 patches won't change that, maybe… It still doesn't work.
- In the mortal ending there was an opportunity to make Tav the victim and show the abuser, Tav's neck was close by - Astarion doesn't, Lord Astarion lets Tav go.
- Tav goes into another plan with Karlach - Lord Astarion lets Tav go. (that's patch 6)

When Astarion doesn't let Tav go, who signed a contract with the Devil and has changed their mind, wants freedom – he won't poke a terrified Tav in the face, and 90% of Tav who studied this romance won't be terrified, as you and I have learnt.
Why won't he? In the epilogue, Astarion wants Tav to be cheerful, enjoy hedonism and decadence, to get in that chariot, and say: "Bring it on" - that's what he wants Freedom-Tav to do, gently, convince.

At first, I was interested in the potential angst and victim story in this romance.
"Maybe he'll cheat the player so well" kind of thing.
But that bursts like a soap bubble by Astarion's line: "Don't be a coward! We can kill them all!" that Astarion says in Act 1. Such a man cannot be touched, cannot be kissed, cannot be given autonomy. He can't even be taken as a companion. When Tav does - Tav realises what awaits them, and most importantly: that Tav into it.
"The Golden Cage" - Tav victim - is the most illogical narrative line for this romance. But the most scandalous and screaming, I admit.

Story and kissing certainly shouldn't be directed along those lines.
Offends my taste, my life experience, and most importantly - my intelligence.

"The character shows the value of violence and the dark side of humanity, as well as to his extraordinary charm and allure. This balance is extremely important because a shift to either side would make Astarion extremely unattractive or too one-dimensional and empty a character".
These are Stephen Rooney's words from an interview. A friend of mine gave it to me, unfortunately I can't find the timeline.
That's why gentle kisses are good - balance.

Romance with Lord Astarion. He's trying to be sneaky, maybe, it's still clear. Everything in this story is consummated in a diabolical way.
I don't think those who want a romance with Raphael will like the victim-line for romance where their character wants to leave 24\7.

The most logical line: is Tav, a true-medieval savage wife who is loved as much as Astarion can (going as far as permissiveness, but Tav is into it), Tav who would kill for Lord Astarion, cares for him, loves him, and will fight shoulder to shoulder with him for Astarion's Tyranny in Baldur's Gate. But he is more elegant in gaining power in this city.

I make no apologies for my little quips to Larian. I hope my suggestions and reasoning were respectful and constructive enough to be taken with dignity and respect. Thank you very much for your time.

To quote Astarion: "I'm worth so much more than what you made me.", we are worth more than what any of those trolls/bad writers try to make us and our Tavs. Our opinions matter. We are still part of this community.

Except, he never does anything to make Tav jealous and throughout the game has always tried to gain their favour and mocked the other companions for being less attractive than him. When he ascends all his other lines suggest he truly sees them as someone special and that he only has eyes for them. The future spawn he might create are referenced as his children, not possible lovers. This new line just sounds weird.


Yes, someone wants to reduce us to crazed nymphos who have wet dreams about being sexually abused and being doormat sex dolls. They clearly don't understand their own audience.

Wrote a feedback 6 hours ago about the new kissing scene on discord for the first time, now I can’t find this feedback anymore, I hope it was not deleted

And seeing AA haters there urge Larian don’t listen to us is really frustrating :’(

*sorry i moved this post here because it fit the topic better.

They are removing all feedback regarding kissing with AAstarion. They are eliminating them all, even those of those who want TAV to have a scared face. They said that even if they remove the comment, they will read it, but they delete them so as not to clog up the feedback section with the same messages

I can look it up for you later, after work, and tell you via PM, if I can see or find it.


Thanks for that answer, I don't need to look up anymore then.


Yes, unfortunately, it is more than sad. These are mostly very toxic people who are self-centered and tend to harm and control others. Very nasty and evil of them, to harm others, who are enjoying a game. They don't want other people who don't agree with them or who don't agree on their own opinion to be happy.

And to come back to this topic. Unfortunately, there are toxic people in many areas or people who have very little empathy for others and/or little knowledge of human nature/ human complex emotions (!), probably also among the Larian team. People who want to dictate to others and dictate how they should feel.. Maybe even envy other people, who enjoy the Romance with Astarion (!). That could be a reason why the new "Valentine's day Patch 6" kisses with sexual violence context (and the continuation to censor the romance scene?) are made like this. Unless it was a big coincidence and mishap, narcissistic and sadistic traits or at least a lack of empathy with other people are clearly recognizable. And such people can sometimes hide it very well under their “charm.”

(I myself would no longer allow a person, especially in case narcissistic, that means self-centered, or sadistic tendencies are present in that person, who has caused such harm to my clients to have control over where they could cause more harm. But this is just my own opinion)

I wanted to answer on the other thread with the Romance scene, but no problem! I rewrote my answer



THIS!

There was a blow up in Discord a few days back and WombatMedic (the moderator) on there removed nearly all the posts regarding patch 6 kisses. Might be worth writing to him directly - if it was your first post on there then your voice is as entitled to be heard as anyone else's. I honestly don't think Discord is much use any more anyway - they removed the upvote option on feedbacks so its just a one persons opinion forum now anyway. probably best to just write directly to Larian

I fact I think I'll post feedback on the feedback system to see if I can get some clarification on stuff

i did i did..as an angry housewife lol

i saw a post that that player claimed he is an AA fan and feels very happy about the new faces of Tav, and ask Larian do not change it,
i was like really???? i feel more like you are a shapechanger sir!! lololol

Well, what does it mean, AA fan? They like AA to be abusive, because they see or want to see themselves in him or him to become like them? To have power and control over other people?

Do they play and feel the AA Romance Route? I'd say 99,9 % No.

So if they claim to be an AA Fan, they mostly act under a cover and hope that they can substantiate their claim. (And their real intention is mostly to harm other people. They ask Larian to give AA fans bad things, ergo to make AA fans suffer. I just read a lot of these comments there,
it is more than obvious. And it's really disgusting, how malicious people can be. Someone even openly say, people, who don't like Tav's unhappy and scared faces in these new kisses here, should leave the game)

So yes, this!

The moderator also removed those who asked to leave that face as is and show the "reality". Although reality with any Astarion looks like a big jail.
My big feedback is still there, as are a few that came before it.
I saw a feedback about BDSM maybe it was too private and crossed some rules, I understand writing there should be very cold, very formal style, based on objective things in the game.
Also I know that over time Larian deletes all feedback, either they have read it and accepted it or found it inappropriate. I think "rails to goodness" was inappropriate. Although is pure truth.

Tbh im not even sure why people are so openly hostile with AA route?

Someone said that tav was just pretending to look scared in the kneeling scene bc they look smiling when when astarion kisses them and I can accept that but I wish the chin grab kiss was more similar to the early one where tav was smiling. And for the slap to be removed from the biting kiss.

And for people who are concerned about tav kneeling in public looks like the game treat the kiss as private? bc I used free cam and I couldnt see my companions (i only tested in morphic pool though cuz i only opened old save to see the kiss) can someonr confirm in like the city if its empty during the kneeling kiss or not?

It comes as feared.
This is ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE! A misconstruction / bad design. Which leads to: People think, it's okay to kiss someone against their will, they like it. LOL
NO! This is not acceptable. Kneeling kiss: Tav shows CONTEMPT + SADNESS (and then extreme fear) right BEFORE and is DISGUSTED + SAD right AFTER, so this construction should never be like that! It promotes sexual violence and seeing women as mindless sex objects. [Contempt, Disgust, Sadness show clearly that it is non-consensual. The kiss/touching lips in the "kneeling kiss" itself yes, it's consensual, he is smiling. Ergo bad and dangerous misconstruction, triggering. And if intended, very perfidious and malicious]

The slap (it's just a harmless playful shove btw.) of the bite kiss would not be a problem, if Tav would like it. So I'd like the slap to be stayed there and just remove the grotesque misconstruction of Tav being portrayed as a victim of sexual abuse.
It should be sane and consensual BDSM. So yes, Tav smiling (no fake smiles!) and being happy! Before, during and after the kisses or being aroused.

I am not concerned about the ingame public kneeling, I can but understand if people do not like it. But yes, we do not always see other NPCs during the kisses. My Tav does not have any problems in kneeling for Astarion, whereever he is.

To be fair its not that difficult to not ask for a kiss in a public place. Most of us wouldn't expect long romantic (or otherwise) kisses in the middle of a busy street in real life - not that we should even have to do this sort of work around , I'm not advocating it, just that it's liveable with.

Personally I don't like the bite kiss much but I can live with that as well if forced to, it at least has the benefit of being slightly vampire specific.

The one I can't abide is the throat grab and that's due to my own past (and I think I have seen a few others on the forums mentioning similar), it seems to be a fairly common thing from previous rl abusive partners, too close to reality to be viewed as a fantasy romance anymore, far too triggering. As long as that one is in the game I can't ask for a kiss at all.

However the others would be liveable with if Tav didn't look like she was in shock, about to burst into hysterical tears and a complete abuse victim.

The reason I think the confusion arises is that when Tav walks up to ask for a kiss they look happy when asking - because Larian just changed the actual animation, so from the moment immediately after the 'ask' when it kicks over to the animation sequence Tav becomes scared, and the same is true of Astarions dialogue, which immediately after the kiss reverts to 'I do really like that you know' or similar, spoken in loving tones. Whole thing has been tacked together badly and really it doesn't work on several levels.

The advantage of them doing it this way of course is that it would be relatively easy to swop out the actual animation (for the studio or a competent modder) because nothing leads into or out of it, makes me wonder if they expected neg feedback.

That's why we suggested in the Astarion improvement Thread to have the possibility to choose between "rough" and "gentle". (gentle = the old kiss animation)
A lot of players do like Astarion's facial expressions and kiss animations like grabbing face&throat, shove, kneeling - also visible in the survey result.
So a choice might be the best option. And "kneeling" of course put under "rough", would solve the problem discussed, players then don't need to click it, when they're in "public", and just, when they're in the mood for rough kisses.
Of course Tav needs to enjoy all the kisses, just to repeat it in case, anyone hasn't noticed it so far

I honestly can't see that as pretending to be scared, I only see a victims face. Especially the kneel kiss, it looks like Tav is about to piss her pants and I REALLY hate it. I don't get either why my tav would pretend to scared when kissing Astarion, I would find it far more in character for Tav to look him straight in the face while smiling expectantly. Tav is kissing her lover the Lord Astarion who she is plotting to kill the world with after all.

To be clear, I'm not attacking you and I respect if you manage to see it differently, but I really really can't see it any other way.


I also have the feeling not everyone was on board with these kisses. We can only speculate ofcourse. The animation is good, but the execution is so bad it feels like someone lost heart or time half way through.

In case someone is not following the Romance improvements thread, I'll repost this here because it fits the topic:

^^

I second this, and I think having an option during the turning night is such a good idea.

These new kisses seriously rub me the wrong way and, supported by PC's tortured facial expressions, lowkey hint at something I don't even want to mention. People applauding these changes and seeing them as "kinky" absolutely baffles me. I guess this plays into the whole notion that "ascending Astarion is failing to see him beyond a sexual object" people like to quote - but I find that idea completely wild and devoid of any logic as well. I'm sure I won't be the only one when I say sex and kink had NOTHING to do with my choice to ascend him.

Saying "the player deserves this" because "Astarion becomes an evil asshole" is also mind-boggling. As if Durge is an innocent cotton flower?! I agree sacrificing 7000 souls for personal gain is selfish and horrible, but how does that translate to our lover SUDDENLY starting to abuse US like this? Throughout the game we extend our trust to Astarion, support his autonomy and independence, give him the necessary space, help him achieve that which he wants the most throughout the entire game and generally show nothing but love, care and support towards him - and then, after fulfilling his greatest desire with OUR help, he just suddenly starts treating us like a rabid dog?! This just doesn't make any sense, I'm sorry!

Claiming as a "bad guy" AAstarion just becomes evil for the sake of evil, disregarding all his previous motives, relationship with the player etc - just makes him flat and takes away the dimension and complexity he was clearly intended to have as a character. Sure, he is evil - but why is he evil towards us, after saying we are the only person he could trust and care for? After begging us himself to help him?? Why all of a sudden the "you are my favourite" line? Even after ascension Astarion still disassosiates during the drow scene, implying his past trauma still affects him, but now he suddenly has a harem??

Even if we stick to official DnD lore, True Vampire's love turns into "obsession". None of these Patch 6 changes speak "obsession" to me. As a love interest we are just being downright humiliated, most of the time in broad public view. There is no "kink" in this, as our character's expressions clearly show this is non-consentual. And I'm sorry, but I just find this revolting, and this kills my motivation to play.

As others mentioned, no other relationship punishes the player so much for choosing the evil/selfish route (and nor should they) - so why does Astarion's?! This feels targeted and judgemental, and takes away all player agency. I'm sure many others would agree, this is not how they/their character would feel or react whatsoever. We are just playing a fantasy game - we don't need to be punished, thank you very much! We're here to have a good time, not to be lectured.

So once again, I agree and 100% endorse players being able to pick between a "gentle" and "rough" option during the turning night. Keep everyone happy. Whoever supports the notion of Astarion losing all his marbles and becoming a soulless evil abuser will be able to choose "rough" and continue roleplaying it as such. Same for whoever likes these new ascended kisses and finds them "kinky" - they would be welcome to pick "rough" and continue enjoying them.

The rest of us should be able to choose "gentle" and not have to suffer through public displays of humiliation every time we want a kiss. Seriously, how ridiculous is having to kneel or be shoved every time?! It is not a difficult or unrealistic concept that even as an evil power-hungry vampire Astarion would still see PC as someone exceptional, considering their journey together and the special relationship they developed. So for the "gentle" option there should be kisses that our character actually enjoys. I'm not even asking for new ones - just keep it as the booty grab and I'll be happy. Anything - just not this lowkey SA that's been introduced in the new patch... I want to be able to stand beside my lover as we watch the world burn, not have him burn the world and me along with it. Please and thank you.