Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

Conjecture.

He was a magistrate. Yes. He imprisoned people. Yes. He doesn't like the Gur. Yes.

None of that is evidence of corruption. At best, you are attempting to read between the lines and coming to conclusions you favor.

Since this is a Suggestions & Feedback thread. I'd like to get us back on track here.

If you just don't ask AA for a kiss, it's the same relationship dynamic as in Pre-Patch 6 - *however* you wish to RP it... being an RP game.
Follow bride theory? Still holds up.
HC that you'll be a more benevolent power couple? Still holds up.
Think they're going to be a terror to all of Faerun? Still holds up.
Want to RP that your Tav hates being with him and feels trapped? You can still do that.
Believe the seer in the Murder Tribunal that you will both die in each other's arms thousands of years in the future as the world ends? That's also still there.

Most of AA fans would like to enjoy the kiss animations that they added for the AA romance without either being completely taken out of the immersion or at worst, being triggered by past abuse history.

If Larian really wants to push an abusive relationship narrative, and romanticize abuse by using it heavily in their marketing, that's wild and gross, and more importantly, I, as well as most AA fans I've spoken to, really don't believe that was the intention. They also would need to completely retcon all of ACT 3 after Cazador and rewrite so many AA lines and reactions, and interactions that it's almost insane, and I'm sorry, but I don't see them doing that. Asking them to double down on an abuse narrative and actually go back to change ALL of the interactions after Ascension is a far bigger ask than asking them to edit some facial animations so we can enjoy the Valentines day content added.

As an AA fan, I would remind you that you don't speak for "most" AA fans. That level of rhetoric and presumption is--how did you put it?--wild and gross?

What are AA fans willing to do who want other AA fans to suffer looking at their frightened character as scared victim in repetitive kissing animations...

Honestly JandK, I am at a loss regarding what to make of your interventions. First of all KiraMira explained why she said “most”, and if it doesn’t satisfy you, it doesn’t mean she hasn’t addressed it entirely. Then you said this :


And the more I think about it, the more confused I get. You explain something about the nature of Astarion and the ritual. It could be said to be a personal take by some, but fine. Then you seem to say that it’s part of the established narrative of the game, and people have to accept that, their personal takes be grieved. Again, fine.

At this juncture I have to say that I have to assume that Larian establishes a narrative through the entire corpus of the game and its various ramifications. So, with all of what has been in Astarion’s bits, even in the romance with him after Ascension. The epilogues of patch 5. Something the people who played that optional route, its variations, might be familiar with.

You seem to take the fact that the player character is represented with an expression that evokes fear or discomfort for most people, as part of the proof of some intent regarding the narrative. No matter that we don’t have a word of Larian to clarify their intent. Just the announcement and advertising of romance stuff. You also seem to have agreed in the past, if I recall correctly, that sometimes expressions are arbitrarily there, and it is what is. But here, for some reason, it should be different ? Still, fine.

But where it becomes quite confusing, even taking it all at face value, is when you say that you “hope” Larian “doubles down” and “corrects” to better reflect etc. Why would they have to “correct” anything when you seem to say the narrative of the game was so well established ? You would have said they could build on, add up to, make more clear, whatever, I might be able to follow you. But “correct” ? I fail to see sound logic there. It would almost make me think you are trying to do with the narrative of the game what you say people are trying to do here. That doesn’t add up well to me.

You joked when some said to just ignore, implying it was strange strategy, and a way to not address what disagrees with someone’s views. Sometimes it’s not about that. Sometimes it’s also difficult to engage with messages or a poster when it makes not much sense. Sometimes it’s just that there’s not much sense to add to the noise and repeat, which you lamented too, when it fails to be convincing.

Nothing is perfect. The story can always be improved, just as the new animations improved things. It's not a difficult concept. There are several things that can still be improved, and I hope Larian has the courage to do so for the sake of the story.

I care far more about the integrity of the story than I do someone's particular fantasy. That's not to say that I don't understand someone's fantasy. I do. But that doesn't always equal a better version of the story.

To put it as simply as I can: I'm glad a lot of the posters here aren't writing the story because I don't think it would have done nearly as well.

There needs to be a depth to the story that goes beyond what's being suggested by this niche group. I care deeply about storytelling as an art form, and I find many of these comments and suggestions to be the equivalent of the death of art. When the story begins to serve something other than the story itself.

Hard choices have to be made in storytelling. Writers often have to kill their darlings, as is popularly said. This is a story that deserves more than to be reduced to these--what I consider to be--shallow and completely unrealistic expectations.

*

And I maintain that *most* people are not even remotely triggered. That's sloppy rhetoric designed to make a niche opinion seem like it has a wave of support. Just like the numerous Astarion threads and the way this one is up to forty some pages, all thanks to a handful of the usual suspect commenters.

At this point we've entered the territory of trying to figure out how many ways "I don't like the new animation" can be said. It reaches heights of unbelievable rhetoric where "most" people are shivering somewhere in a corner from the trauma.

The amount of hyperbole, repetition, and disingenuous takes in this thread has been staggering. Not to mention the attempts to bully others out of the conversation.

You say changing facial expressions back is unrealistic then ask Larian to rewrite a bunch of its dialogue to fit your personal head canon of a character.

Quite the logic, but okay.

So which is it? Do you care for the integrity of the story? Or do you hope for large portions of the end writing to change?

This is dedicated trolling, I'll give you that. Don't actually engage with any points being made and just continue to yell "fantasy!" When people stop acknowledging you, take to personal insult. Hardly original, sadly.

Please change the victim faces, Larian. You've been lauded for handling the topic of abuse well. Making AA fans RP a victim isn't it.

I did not say changing the expression was unrealistic. At this point, you're shadow boxing.

I said the facial expression was an improvement. And I hope to see more improvements. For some reason that seems to be very difficult to understand, but it seems terribly simple to me.

Thank you for the answer. To improve is a better word, but still I would be inclined to say that it means it’s not as clear cut as you presented it.

I mostly play games for the story, so I can understand it is difficult when it’s something people are there for too. I’m not too bothered by that bit of plot though, but I’ve seen a good amount of things that I could consider plot holes in the game. And inconsistencies (for example having Barcus in camp until we reach Last Light, but then it’s like it never happened). That’s where I would be fine with some improvement yes. Or when I can agree with some requests for other companions and such.

Maybe it’s a niche group here, in the sense that not everyone romances ascended Astarion. But there’s still the entirety of what Larian established with it, in later epilogues too. People already had the opportunity to be content with it until those scenes. A romance gift in a patch, nothing more that we know of. Mostly because of an arbitrary expression, that is here we don’t know why. They’re asking to be able to keep enjoying it, have not much to say about Astarion’s antics really, with nothing to really indicate Larian had a change of heart regarding what they had established and allowed to happen. I don’t think it’s much to ask. Doesn’t mean they have to do something, but still not much to ask. If only for the sake of coherence, since now there’s a strange bubble event in a narrative that Larian never said they were changing.

I can understand that we have different ways to look at it all and interpret, and so on. It’s fine to dislike something. Maybe it’s also good to go past that, keep the bigger picture in mind. People here certainly have not written what has always been in the game and allowed them to go that route and be satisfied with it, if that make sense. I can understand your passion for this, but somewhere else you asked someone if they had thought about applying to a position in order to get the narratives they wanted. I would say it’s a good one, the spirit of it at least, to contemplate here.

Edit : As for what you added to your message, and that I just read. I believe it’s important to talk about triggers and such in media. But I will agree to disagree rather than developing, and wish you the best at all times. For your other recriminations, I will just say that, in my opinion, you also have your hands in the problem at this point (repetition, something in the tone, etc.). It might not be very charitable of me, but still. And again, agree to disagree, mostly, and well wishes.

Most does not mean all, I thought that was an understandable difference, my apologies, it appears I need to rephrase. Most "AA fans that romance AA" are dissatisfied. Most "AA fans that romance AA" in AA fan spaces are dissatisfied. If there is a large population of "AA fans that romance AA" that are not dissatisfied, they are not speaking those thoughts in any of the AA fan spaces.

Most "AA fans that romance AA" and I'd wager most people would agree that forcing players to be in a situation in game that is simulating domestic violence, especially 8 months after a games release, without warning, and using that DV in marketing is unacceptable.


May I ask what you are referring to? As stated several times, if we do not ask for AA for a kiss, we all can RP the exact same way we did pre Patch 6, so it seems the "Integrity" of the story in *your* fantasy is not as strong as you claim it to be. You have yet to give any solid examples of how you got to this conclusion.



Can you please explain how asking for facial animations to be edited is completely unrealistic, yet asking Larian to "correct later dialogue options reflecting what happened in the dark ritual." is not completely unrealistic? That is almost every scene, dialogue, interaction, reaction, remaining in ACT 3 and the epilogue to be redone. And agree to disagree, but I would argue that reducing AA to just a black/white "evil" is far more shallow than keeping the complexity and nuance of the character that we now have. I believe it was Rooney that said (and I am paraphrasing) boiling down any character to just black/white "good/evil" was boring and reductive. Astarion is and remains a complex character in all acts & endings.



I apologize if you feel bullied, but to be fair, you have also come across as dismissive and rude in not only this thread, but multiple threads on this forum. Multiple attempts to derail a conversation is quite frustrating, and I could also same the same for your hyperbole, repetition and disingenuous takes. Not once has it felt you are entering this discourse with good faith. I've seen replies to all of your points, but I've also seen where you only strawman your replies and do not actually acknowledge any of the canonical points used to show our point of view. Perhaps if you took the time to actually explain we could limit the misunderstandings.

Some people brought up Mephistos deal and what it means, I want to double down on it:



AA is basically Mephistos bitch. As would Cazador have been. There is no good or human side left anymore. If I go down the route of romancing AA, I know, it is a bad thing and evil.

I said it to an AA fan in another forum: It's Larians character, they made him that way on purpose. In order for AA Astarion to become, you have not only condemn 7000 souls to eternal damnation in hell, children among them (and if you are familiar with the lore about Mephisto, you know, that he tends to use his souls for often very painful magical experiments - might I emphasize the children part here again?), you also have to wipe out the whole Gur clan - innocent people, who just wanted their children back and put an end to an evil creature. I rather side with the Gur than any ascended abomination tbh.

AA should even be shown more evil, if anything.

I'm not saying: Don't go down the AA route, if you want to, I don't get the appeal personally of becomin ga slave for eternity to a very fickle and evil being, but to each their own. People want to romance Raphael, Haarlep, Gortash, Orin... so why not AA, if you want explore your evil side.
But you should acknowledge, that it is the evil route. He is changed and everything, he has build up as a spawn, building trust for the first time in a very long time (be it as a friend or lover) is just thrown out the window. And that is good imo. People always complain there isn't enough for an evil playthrough - I think AA fits best in an evil playthrough. Team him up with DJ SHadowheart, Minthara and Vlaakith Lae'zel and you have a nice evil line up.
I honestly don't get the problem, people have with it. The kiss animation (I watched it on youtube, since I have zero inetrest in doing such a toxic romance) is exactly fitting. Even a Tav/Durge that might be in to it, probably has a moment of doubt. This is for eternity and the implications are made clear. I think, it is a very powerful scene.

As someone who agrees with literally everything you've said, I personally feel that the kiss doesn't really fit the moment that it's in, or its theoretical narrative purpose. I think if it were placed during the epilogue or something like that, it would work far better. But as a repeatable kiss that the player asks for, it feels out of place.

I don't know, when the kiss occurs. I would say, it fits anytime after TAv/Durge/Origin is made a spawn, to hammer home the situation, they put themselves in.

They are just the normal kisses, so they happen everywhere. Which is odd for something that due to its great dramatic impact (the kneeling one especially) feel very situational. I still think the kneeling one would be peak for when the PC tries to break up with AA in the scene when you talk about your future together after defeating the brain and AA just laughs at them. It would be a great finale for that particular turn of events.

Who did you have romance with, if it's no secret?
The problem is that even with the same "evil" characters you named: the dark Justiciar SHadowheart, Minthara and Vlaakith Lae'zel, the romantic interactions with them are pleasant. Your character is not intimidated by their partner.
People here aren't complaining about AA being evil and needing to be softened (Though everyone has different points on ritual, soul loss and other consequences. The game allows for interpretation.). Let's say it's Mephisto himself tenfold. I'm not going to change your mind.
People here are talking about the fact that we as players have chosen this path. And are asking to pick the face of TAB to be happy or neutral.
If you had read all 40 pages in this thread, you would realize what most people are trying to say.
It's just that you're judging a novel you haven't played, in my opinion it seems biased...
AA as a character is not being challenged by anyone here.
For a February 14 gift, it was done rudely. I would return such a gift to the sender. Everyone got a treat, but I got a whip on my ass. I'd like to get the whip with a neutral face at least.
Although (my opinion isn't the most popular) I personally preferred the whole way through with no innovation kisses at all in the game, but that might violate someone else's vision of toxic and evil АА.

I have complex opinions about the current topics of conversation.

On one hand, regarding the possible soullessness of AA: I feel like him losing his soul or anything along those lines would make that story far less compelling, and that's mostly what I care about here. There are extraofficial statements from one of the writers basically reaffirming this (in a way I personally really liked, because of his extra comments on that route) but I understand not everyone likes adhering to things that are not directly stated in the text.
It doesn't/wouldn't mean he's any less evil or anything. When reading fanfics a trope I see often is the protagonist striking a deal of sorts to return Astarion's soul to him and to that I think "Well, and what would that change, exactly? You still reaffirmed his worldview and helped him carry a toll of 7k deaths that he's going to have to "live up to", so to speak. That can't be undone."
However I understand that this is the natural conclusion a lot of people reach, personally my very first impression when I ascended him (this was completely blind, not spoiled or exposed to the fandom whatsoever) and hearing him speak for the first time was "Oh shit, I killed him!" He gains a sense of heightened Uncanny Valley to his personality, it's very good at giving you that sense of discomfort. The sudden switch could've been done better, but I feel like it was a narrative way to leave things all nicely tied up with a bow since there's a limited amount of time they have to show the way his personality develops here.

Now, regarding the consistency of the current narrative in the romance people are debating is or isn't there: I do honestly think that /that/ infamous narrative /is/ there, has always been, and is well established, I think it's pretty well written. Adding or removing faces doesn't change that, for me. It's pretty clear to me what the nature of that relationship is going to end up being, however long that's going to take. My only newer issue is that the new epilogue lines (where he doesn't compel spawn Tav if they've been somewhere else, although that'd be impossible for him in 2 out of the 3 possible scenarios here so maybe that's why it was simplified) caters to the player's agency too much in a way that I feel is very OOC, but since I've seen the kind of OOC things they've done for the player's sake as well (Lae'zel dating mindflayer Tav) I can live with that.

I also agree that at the point of the story it's presented and in the way it is presented (as a repeatable action that your character has to ask for) is quite strange. It doesn't bother me a lot since the narrative I'm interested in isn't the one most people here are seeking, but it's not super logical in how it's been set up, which is why I think it should be changed to a neutral face to be as much of a possible blank slate for all possible Tavs that can be in that situation.
I am, however, very against the idea often expressed here that the story needs to or should cater to someone. I think the simplest way to put it is that I often see the sentiment that "Well, I just want my dark romance, I just want my power couple romance where I'm his queen etc" and, well, just because someone wants it doesn't mean it has to be, should be, or is that way. If Larian went for a pure self-indulgent dark romance that would all be well and good, but maybe that's just not the story they're going for here. And I think that's interesting, and a good thing. A videogame romance route doesn't have to be self-indulgent. I like that a romance route can stretch a bit and explore the psychology of the characters in a relationship, and the consequences of the choices made throughout the game, in a way that's not perhaps "ideal" for the protagonist. Astarion's story /going there/ a few times, exploring important, kind of taboo themes you didn't think they'd dare to (the protagonist potentially SA'ing him in Act 2 is such a powerful, devastating scene) testing what RPG videogames and romance routes can showcase is to me very important, I think this story would've impacted me far less if they'd gone the standard route of just doing the usual stuff they usually do for RPG romances.

(Please bear in mind that my views are complex, and I'm specifically tackling an idea or sentiment here, not the overrall logic of Tav's faces) I also disagree with the idea that, because a group of people is triggered, something shouldn't be in a story. It's unfortunate if people are hurt by it, and I'm sorry about that. But I also have massive triggers that are found in many, many games, where I've had to stop playing them (this is also present in BG3, but to a point it bothers me less. Or maybe I chose to power through) and I'd never blame the writers or ask the story or its elements to be changed for me. I wish my life was easier and no one ever depicted the stuff that hurts me, but I can't ask other people to adapt. And I think this way of thinking is bordering on censorship, honestly.

To finish off, and I'm perhaps being too cautious or vulnerable here, I'm going to ask people to please avoid replying to some of my points in bad faith or trying to engage in the typical circular arguments about what is or isn't the abuse narrative present in the game, as that isn't going to be productive. I do think that to some extent there is an amount of ostracising not only in this forum, but in general spaces (it's directly forbidden to tackle that aspect of his story on his subreddit, so I'm already barred from expressing my full view of his story and what I appreciate there, although I understand that the reason the subreddit was made was to be a safe space for fans who are tired of certain comments. I do selfishly wish there was a space I could be comfortable to discuss my enjoyment of the story with likeminded people, though.), towards AA fans who don't adhere to the most popular opinion on his route. I understand frustration if my point of view is very far removed from yours, because I've been there too, but at this point I'm tired of all that and would just rather peacefully and constructively talk about whatever I think isn't going to be circular.

I don't do evil playthroughs, so I will never romance any of those. The difference is, that AA is basically an infernal abomination, SHadow, Lae, Minthara are still normal people with shrewd philosophies. So it makes sense, that they might be more pleasent to romance, though I remember reading, that Minthara tries to kill you after a sex scene, sooooo - not that healthy either.
And I have read enough complains from AA fans about that kiss, that I have enough for the end of my days. The point is, it still fits the character. If you want nice Astarion, leave him spawn and help him make his own decisions. AA is basically not humanoid anymore.


Nope, sorry, hard disagree. This is a case of play stupid games, win stupid prices. Tav was stupid to become a spawn to a truely evil, infernal being - this is, what they get and it should show.

I can't agree with you either. There is a percentage of players who choose to play as "evil" or choose "evil" companions.. For such players Larian is even preparing new endings now.
And that doesn't mean that if you choose an evil playthrough or choose "evil" companions, you're legitimately getting your ass kicked and you won't enjoy your playthrough. It is, after all, just a game.
But I'm not going to change your established opinion. Just like I'm not likely to change my "stupid" opinion either and "stupid" game.

Again, it's back to the fact that you're not interested in the AA novel, you don't do evil game walkthroughs, and are tired of reading "stupid" AA fans for years to come, so...what's the argument then? That what's done is right? Doubtful, but okay...

She tries to kill you regardless of whether you sleep with her or not, but you can talk her out of it. She's still pretty ruthless though, even after you rescue her.

The thing is, if the player does not ask A.Astarion for a kiss, they don't' win 'stupid prizes, they get a darker, twisted version of the romance where he is more possessive and controlling but still expresses affection towards the player character.
Since you don't romance evil aligned characters, I think that might explain why you don't get the disconnect we are feeling since Patch 6.

The player can be affectionate and get loving responses in the dialogue with A.Astarion throughout the game.
They are even able to break up with him right until the final battle.
But the kiss animation shows the player character frozen with fear and looking terrified. ie. Not consenting to the treatment they are receiving and unable to do anything about it.
After asking for a kiss, we can then go back to loving responses and the player character having a smiling face when talking to him.
Surely you can see the contradiction here? A.Astarion is no longer consistent in his treatment of the player character.

And if you really feel you have heard enough complaints 'for the end of my days', there are plenty of other threads on this forum to choose from.