Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

My point is, that your decisions should have consequences. If you play as Durge and you embrace your father and then destroy the brain, it's your decision and you will have awful consequences (argumentally one of the worst endings for a pc) . If you date Mephistos abomination, you should be braced for consequences too.
I didn't say AA are stupid - that play stupid games thing was a quote.

Please! EVERYONE! Please get back to the reason for the forum thread. Instead of arguing, let us make our suggestion to LARIAN and give our FEEDBACK to Larian about how Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion.

We do not need or want to argue with people! If someone is upsetting you or whatever: ignore them or block them by clicking their picture, and click ignore user (As per the Moderator's Instructions), and let's get back to talking about the thread per the title.

Stop the arguments, please!

Thank you.

Seconded

Larian, I have every faith in the world you would not develop cutscenes of abuse and advertise them on Valentine's Day to punish women gamers.

It's my suggestion that you see and understand the hostility that patch 6 victim faces has brought to the AA community, as it's spurred an idea that a mainstream gaming company intends to teach women/queer audiences "a lesson" about why not to romance evil option in fiction via forced depictions abuse. While leaving all other audiences to enjoy their own vices.

The oversight of the faces has caused issue for thousands of players who just wish to participate in the community with the same ability to have fun as everyone else.

Instead we are the only ones who get bombarded with "lessons" and "explanations".
Please continue to make the game fun and forgo the moralizing. If that is not your intention, as I fully believe it is not your plan to continue to make gaming a hostile experience for women/queer players, then I dually suggest you change the faces, as its spurring unnecessary vitriol towards others and is deeply inconsistent with the writing that players who thoroughly play the AA route consisently encounter.

A simple address of the issue would go miles. Fixing the victim faces would continue to keep the game fun, while allowing *every* RP angle to continue. Please keep doors open for your female/queer players to enjoy the game. This is a wonderful story. I'd love to continue to enjoy it as the talented devs have intended.

@DarkAngelBeckons You are probably correct. Reading through the comments I can easily get the gist of some peoples intentions. I will block and ignore. Thanks.
Also thank you to @KlarissA for defending my comment while I was away IRL, I really appreciate it.

Evil CAN love and my Tav/DUrge wishes for playfulness in her romantic relationship with Astarion the Ascended Vampire. That is it. *smile*

Dear Developer,

I find it despicable, nay, diabolical, that you would defend Baldur's Gate's ridiculous restrictions regarding the enjoyment of kisses from an evil and utterly narcissistic monster. No spawn may be the exception that Ascended Astarion loves and respects? How archaic! My darling Tav is the most well-behaved spawn you'll ever meet, and yet to share special kisses with my bloodsucking master, I must retreat to my summer fanfiction in Cormyr.

I call upon the Parliament of Peers to resolve this issue. Immediately. The emotional and psychological well-being of the players of Baldur's Gate is at stake, and I shall take this to the highest of authorities should it not be dealt with accordingly.

Right now, Tav cries out for her kisses. This archaic policy has separated a Tav from being special enough to her evil bad boy. I don't know how Grand Duke Swen Vincke lives with himself.

Yours faithfully,

"Most" of the citizens of Baldur's Gate

I almost feel defenseless when some bigot tries to twist my arm because you can't love and be happy with a power hungry, lecherous dangerous hedonist. You'll only be his victim, that's the way it has to be, it's the right thing to do, consequences - suffer and fear.
Just instead of the "you're pissing off god" and "you need to be non-vicious" and other bullshit.
Added psychology, rationalizing how and why it's bad and needing to speak loudly about abusive behavior.
Speak up, not in a place where the topic of abuse only makes people who came for a dark romance with a vampire uncomfortable.
This discussion should stay in the last century, or the post-past century.

In terms of plot.

Just would have done it from the beginning then. The developers have already confirmed that this is his personality, which was obvious he was almost quoting himself from Act 1-2. But now Tav has to be afraid.
Total hypocrisy, then.
Where Tav should be shaking with fear at the words "let's massacre" with the Spawn Astarion and not be able to continue the affair, with the man who manipulated and fell in love. I mean, it's the right thing to do. But somehow it doesn't happen and that man can be hugged and kiss with happy faces.
Also the "conflation" of Tav's smiles in the epilogue and positive responses to the Ascended Astarion about their life of 6 months.

Interview with Neil...


Neil is a very sensitive and emotional person who empathizes with people. After about 50 minutes into the video, he talks about what struck him most about this experience, when so many people reached out to him saying they were noticed and felt accepted and normal, many trauma survivors who felt understood and seen by this game, this play, this story, because they were allowed to be who they are and where they are in their lives. "I never expected this level of helping people to happen. I feel like people have found safety."

I truly sympathize with Neil that he was forced to take part in those scenes. He said he doesn't read the comments online, and perhaps that's for the best, because now, after the crude, stupid, unjustified, tactless and cruel, in no way related to the story, in no way matching Neil and Steven's magnificent, subtle teamwork, introduction of traumatizing sadistic scenes into the game, a certain segment of people are no longer safe. What's more, they've relived their traumas again. I didn't have such a difficult experience, but I understood and saw Astarion himself. No, I would never say to him, "Oh, I understand you, you're just afraid, it's all fears, nothing like that will happen again." Because, for one thing, where are the guarantees? The world of Faerûn is a dangerous thing, and even if we're talking about "fearlessness of the hero", if I were Tav, the phrase "Astarion will remain a spawn forever" really scares me. It's the scariest phrase in the game. Secondly, it's just plain stupid. Anyone who hasn't experienced something like that doesn't understand a damn thing. And they won't. I only realize how fragile and vulnerable he is deep down, no matter how brave he is, even despite his newfound confidence after the Ascension. I just wanted to cherish him, give him as much as I could, I could never hurt him, with my hand in my game, all the violent scenes like the Oblodra bite, the brothel, I could only watch on video, and it caused me some anger issues, so much so that I couldn't even sit through the Halsin threesome video, I decided not to torture myself. I even apologized or explained myself out loud to him in response to his "Don't touch me", I've never had that in any other game, although I do like to occasionally "chat" with companions while jogging around the map, of course it must look silly from the outside, but after all, no one is looking at me when I'm playing. I think developers should realize that the level of immersion in the game for the player can be very high, that not everyone can perceive the game detachedly, like some novel.

And after the sixth patch, there was only one word: "Why?" Why should I feel rejected, abnormal, like an "enemy of the people" that the hooting "fans of monsters and absolute evil" demand to be shot? The game was positioned as a safe place of acceptance for people of all orientations and all gender identities. Even though I'm a person of the ordinary female gender, with the most ordinary sexual orientation, I too would like to be accepted. And Astarion used to give real unconditional acceptance, he responded with love to the love I wanted to give him. And after the sixth patch I found myself part of an abused minority. I sympathize with all the other women and homosexual men who are no longer safe either. Homosexual men, I think, have it even harder, it's harder for them to come forward about their traumas than women, especially if they live in countries where they can't come forward at all and have had to endure it in silence. Because for those who relish the opportunity to express their cruelty in a "socially acceptable way" while remaining "officially good", like "Astarion is a monster, it's written about him in the monsterbook, hurrah, my good paladin can do whatever he wants to him, I'm good", the same "good paladins" have always pounced with furious joy on those who were "written about in the Bible" that they were sinners and could be treated that way. Anyone who knows a little history can recall many examples of such attitudes.

Now minority made not because of orientation (although heterosexual men are lucky again), but for what reason? Because of personality traits, non-conformist thinking? Like, we're told what we should do, feel, and how to perceive, and we dare to have a different mindset from the dictated one? It's like some kind of symbolic image of communism. With a Gulag and whores. The former for the undesirable, the latter for the "racially correct".

On a separate note, in the interview Neil also talks about the hard work he and Stephen did creating Astarion. And about his attitude towards trolls. Really, the "AA is basically Mephistos bitch", "infernal abomination" style opinions are not worth reading this. BG3 is a very popular game, and people play it... different.

Stephen and Neil didn't create a cheap tabloid good-versus-evil fantasy character, they created a complex character. Stephen said: "The character shows the value of violence and the dark side of humanity, as well as well as his extraordinary charm and appeal. This balance is extremely important, as a shift to one side or the other would have made Astarion extremely unattractive or too one-dimensional and empty a character. "

Neil said: «Astarion's spawn is theater (with all the masks, lies and deception still included) or Ascendant (no masks, no lies, just the truth because he has the confidence to push his arrogance in your face without fear)».

That's how Astarion is shown in the game. The real Astarion. "Bubble kisses" - alien to the character, traumatizing and humiliating players, pasted by someone's clearly unprofessional hand, sadistic sticker. Fans of cheap fantasy about "monsters" and "absolute evil" who are eager to replace Stephen's brilliant work with the usual tabloid novel with "morality" can only respond by quoting from BG1. Candlekeep Inn. The answer to Winthrop, which demands 5000 gold from each person who enters:

"You've always been a big joker, Winthrop. That joke gets funnier and funnier every time I hear it. Well, maybe not quite every time."

The way these "new scenes" are set up, either someone with a psychopathic and sadistic personality disorder, or someone with the rare mental illness "short-term kissing" and amnesia afterward, could behave this way. In the former case, in terms of plot, the entire Astarion would have to be rewritten to fit these "kissing" scenes. Take out all the touching and sincere moments. Make an extra epilogue for the Spawn where he slaughters Tav, then sets out to kill everything that moves through Baldur's night. If AA's relationship to Tav in those kisses is the kind of "sadistic love" where Tav is his "treasure" after all, but he loves to watch that treasure suffer but doesn't want them dead and won't let go, then towards the person who didn't let him Ascend, he must have a hard-to-contain hatred that will come out sooner or later. Also add the possibility of suicide for Tav, who loved Astarion. "Death, it was I who came for you" is the line my Tav would like to say in the final battle with the Brain and preferably stay there as well. If this is that kind of story, more realism is needed.

The second is finding a cure to Astarion, talking to Astarion and explaining to him that he's doing something not so good, even though he doesn't remember it, but it's going to be okay, it's not his fault, just look for a psychiatrist/some magical artifact or pill to take.

It's much easier to bring logic back into the story by just fixing those "kisses".

This made me laugh because I'm the same way! I usually say something like "It's ok, I'm just gonna look at your inventory" in response to the "don't touch me".

I really enjoy reading your comments by the way, they kind of calms me down. Maybe because I agree with a lot of what you are saying.

An excellent write up and reasoning. I always appreciate your takes on the matter. Genuine thank you for putting in the effort. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed.

If the suggestion is that Astarion is a deeper character because he's a bad boy lover that is tough and evil but really really loves Tav cause dark fantasy then that's laughable.

Ascended Astarion being a monster to the world but a devoted true love to Tav is as cliched and ridiculously generic as ideas come.

I agree and I'd like to add, not only SA/DV survivors are affected and harmed by these scenes in their playthrough or this situation, also a lot of other people. I want to mention especially those, who have or had mental illnesses, like depression, anxiety, etc. There are people without experienced domestic violence who got depressive or other mental illness episodes because of these SA/DV/SSD scenes or this situation, even those, who haven't got depressive or other mental illness episodes for a longer time (for example a year).
I find it more than worrying and sad that there are people here coming to this suggestion and feedback thread who mock on purpose other people who suffer from depressions, ptsd and so on. Devaluing these people, in whatever form, is very shameful.


I agree. And also the others, Marielle, Natasy, good posts. And yes, I can also suggest not to interact so much with trolling or mocking posts, when the intention is clear, or at least, don't let them hurt you.

Oh yes, I had that with inventory too... Especially when you want to add something useful or cute to his inventory (Astarion was collecting a collection of rare gems, unique items, cups, etc.). And then the next time you click on it he's already pleased and says "delicious", and five minutes later "Keep your distance, darling..."

KiraMira, Natasy, Zayir , thank you for your kind words! <3 I also really enjoy reading your posts, and those of many other members of the thread..... Perhaps the only good thing that this unfortunate patch has done is to bring so many interesting people together in one place, it's not uncommon for me to read someone's post and think, "Oh yeah, that's right!" or "Wow, me too...". It leaves a good feeling and that feeling of support.

But how unbanal dreams of messing up Stephen Rooney's work to make the character fit your argument:

I've had Astarion since Act 1 as treasurer (he carries all the money, he's got a city to rebuild after it's been destroyed), a bunch of keys of all kinds, lockpicks, sapper sets, a plush owlbear, cups of different metals, gems, a rope for Durge (he'll need it), costumes from Act 3, Necromancy of Thay, and a couple of rare books from the library of Ramazit Tower, a ring from the graveyard and 2 rings of Zarr, ritual scroll, an artist's painting, a "genie" lamp and a painted skull from the circus (per Neil's precepts).
The only one I left his camp clothes and his camisole with in inventory (can't take away what he stitched up so diligently).

I think he felt something like this.

And I love putting him in stealth mode and poking at the image icon several times in a row. Favorite: when he hisses at you "shut up, shut up, shut up" and says, "that never happened in Strada's time." Anyway, listen up if you didn't know.)

New:
I apologize for a bit of misinformation. About Strath (If literally: Strath wouldn't put up with this shit), as well as Don'tUrden's Driz, and I think a reference to Edgar Allan Poe's The a bleeding heart, he speaks when he stands. Just persistently click on his icon.

In the stealth mode "shut up, shut up, shut up," and a couple other groovy ones. To hear them all, click on his icon repeatedly until he's quiet, switch to any other character and back to him again until he's silent.

Plus putting him in stealth mode and listening to his whispers is like ASMR and can be very relaxing


Hahaha, I have to admit it, my Astarion had the plush owlbear, too. I like these beautiful details in the game.

Yeah, when I read the description of his neatly stitched shirt that he was so careful to keep, I almost burst into tears. Then there was the frantic buying from all Baldur's tailors. Tav had to carry most of his sapper sets (you get a lot of them in the game) and clothing, or else Astarion wouldn't have been able to handle all that stuff...

He rubbed the genie's lamp himself, and then relaxed with a hookah and fruit while the rest of the compaine tinkered with the genie.


It's called: Astarion said he didn't have anything of his own... Said on his own head.


Thank you!!! I didn't know there were lines like that, I'd really like to hear it... I'll upload some old save. "Hello to you" in a whisper is so sweet and touching...


A plush owlbear is the best gift for a Vampire Lord! There are two of them - we also found a backpack in the shape of a bear, it is convenient to store "Necromancy of Thay", "Vampiric Duality" and other interesting books.

Yeeeees...
It's a small thing, but it's nice .)))
There's a funny thing about the lamp, too. The first time he sees the lamp under the Vokin shelter, Astarion says excitedly, "That's lamp! Oh, no, just a lamp." On my first playthrough, I realized I was going to find a genie in one of them somewhere in the game.
I'm very ashamed, but I stole the second plush owlbear from Act 3 from some child in house. The family got angry and called the guards. I negotiated with the guards, but I didn't give the toy back. Sorry, boy...but the Dark Lord needs it more.
I didn't know there was a plush backpack! This is cool. I found a bear, but it was a toy...i think. I gave the bear to Carlah. So much in the game of course hidden, I'm shocked, how much labor went even on such small things, thank you developers <3.
And I apologize, I deviated from the discussion, but it was nice to talk, and to know I'm not the only one who does this. XD

It is located on the swamp, in the first act.

Back on topic, I'd like to add a bit about the justification and logic of introducing violent "moral lessons" into RPGs. Albert Einstein said regarding morality and religion, "The ethical behavior of man must be based on empathy, education, and social ties. No religious basis for it is required. It would be very bad for human beings if they could be restrained only by the power of fear and punishment and the hope of retribution after death." Applied to game worlds, we can paraphrase this as follows: "The player's choices in a game should be based on empathy for the game characters, roleplay, and their own desires. No traumatizing content is required for this. It would be very bad for the game developers if players could be deterred from 'immoral decisions' by the only force of fear and retribution and the hope that modders would fix this once mod support returns."

There are games in which you really don't want to "play for evil", because "playing for good" in these worlds comes out much warmer, more joyful and attractive. Sometimes it happens, Larian failed, but that's okay, there was a wonderful "evil" option to pass through, everyone was happy.When that option becomes impossible to pass, becomes a mockery of the players who choose it, it doesn't make your "good ending" more appealing. You will cause anger, pain, and sadness from those players affected, and justifiable skepticism from those who look at it from a story and logic perspective. I understand that the developers may have their own definite dislike for evil walkthrough options and evil characters, a superficial understanding of the subject matter ("Evil is isolation", etc.), but you yourself promised these walkthrough options for players back during EA, why? Why promise something and then do it so poorly to disappoint the audience? And okay, the emptiness and underdeveloped "evil walkthroughs" that players repeatedly complained about, in the sixth patch you just had to take the story of Astarion and ruin it! If you don't like "evil" - don't work with it, don't promise players these stories. Larian's previous games didn't have a theme of "complex evil" and the games had their own fanbase, their own audience, there were no grudges, toxic moralfags and whatnot.You can go back to the same philosophy in your next game, in your own setting, where you won't have the expectations of the Baldur's Gate series players hanging over you. But BG3 needs to be left in playable form, not turned into sadistic garbage Astarion's story. And about someone who enjoys traumatizing scenes, well, let's imagine that a certain company produced, let's say, very popular and delicious chocolate. And one day one of the production technologists added a new special flavor to it for the sake of experiment, hype, or with some other intentions. And some part of consumers became allergic to this additive, they felt ill when they, unsuspecting, bit into a slice of the familiar and favorite product. At the same time, someone liked the facial expressions of the poisoning victims, they take pictures of the poisoned, put it on the Internet and rejoice. Some simply liked the new additive and demanded to keep it, let them poison themselves some more. Is it worth it for a company to leave such an ingredient in their products for the sake of it?

Please Larian, remove traumatizing content from the game. In the meantime, look at the bullers who demand more insults. Do you really want to remain in gaming history as a studio working for such an audience?

Simply put, before Patch 6 in my single player game I had a romance with Ascended Astarion that made me happy.
Patch 6 landed and 7 months after game release I'm now a victim of partner abuse, as a Valentine's Day gift!
You apparently ruled out flowers and chocolates then?
Please Larian - Just do something to change that. I've barely touched the game since patch 6 landed.