Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

Yeah, that's the one)) <3
Understanding this character comes in adulthood .
You passed the age test XD.

What is the old memey-saying? "Adulthood is when you stop being afraid of villains and starting wanting to bang them?" :P

Phew I guess I pass the age test too as that is who I thought you meant

though I saw it some years later as I was only 4 when that came out.

From hate to love is just a step...and a little senile sand.
I was looking at it and thinking, Sarah, you're an idiot. A man like that goes missing.

And I caught the Labyrinth vibe when I first heard "Until the world falls down" from AA.
And I was like, we'll take that, give me two please. XD


Then, you're in on it too)

Totally agree. Perhaps also the abundance of sexual content of all kinds, and the promotion of the ability to fuck anything that moves, attracts people to the game who are far from RPGs, from understanding the structure of the story, from any kind of "dark romance", and they, gathered in a pack, try to assert themselves at the expense of those whom the game positions as victims. The scariest part is that among these players are actually victims of violence who have re-experienced the effects of PTSD because of this game, and they may indeed be vulnerable to these attacks. After patch 6, Astarion's fandom represents something like:



Yes! It's a great character, which Stephen Rooney did well. He and Neil also brought to this character a terrific liveliness of character, humor (Astarion's jokes are the best in the game) and a special signature "Astarion" charm. This is the Astarion we have come to love.

Why do I choose the Ascended Astarion?

It's simple, I choose Astarion, and Astarion chooses Ascension. I love Astarion as a person, as a personality, as a character. I'm with him all the way. I love the theme of vampirism, I love that moment of intimacy that happens during the bite, I love being able to give a small part of myself (my blood) and make him happy. It's a pleasure on an empathic level. But if Astarion wasn't a vampire, it wouldn't make a difference.

I didn't even choose Astarion, on the first playthrough it happened on its own, naturally, the romance just came together, without spoilers or any calculations. I want to quote from Julio Cortázar's "The game of classics" (Spanish "Rayuela", maybe in the English version the title of the book is translated differently, if anything, I apologize for the inaccuracy): "'Many people think that love consists of choosing a woman and marrying her. And they do, I swear to you, I've seen it myself. Isn't it possible to choose in love, isn't love a lightning bolt that strikes you suddenly, nails you to the ground in the middle of the courtyard. You will say that that is why one chooses to love, but I think it is the other way around. Beatrice is not chosen, Juliet is not chosen." It's about a woman, but it's perfectly applicable to a person of either sex. I didn't choose Astarion.

But I was choosing BG3 when I bought this game, and I was counting on a decent high level RPG. At first, this game completely carried me away, became a kind of medicine. Before that I had a difficult period - I fought for two years for the life of my favorite cat, she had a serious cancer disease, I did everything I could do. Of course, it was not without counselors in the style: "Where do you spend so much money, you can't afford it, it's better to put it to sleep". In reality, I can send the counselors on an erotic pedestrian journey, unlike in a game where the insulters, who poor thing, try so hard that they have to regularly clean their keyboards from the consequences of their nausea, will immediately start crying at how they are bullied and humiliated. But in reality, you can't win either, especially with illness, and you have to lose a loved creature. The first paycheck, from which I could buy myself something besides cheap food and payment for chemotherapy, I didn't know where to spend, I had no desire to, until I saw on the Internet a review of the just released BG3. The game helped me come to terms with it, distracted me, then Astarion took over my fantasies and his fate became the main quest of the game. And... I'm being offered to leave Astarion a spawn forever? They want to make me feel like a failure if I'm not going to do it? That's a chutzpah I didn't expect from the authors of such a beautiful game. Okay, one can want whatever they want, other people's wishes don't bother me much, as long as I could play the way I want to play. But tears in a Valentine's Day gift, a blow to the game's trust, a blow to the perception of the game world, is that normal treatment to fans? Sure, the pain of being scorned by a loved one is supposed to be a slightly different facial expression than the fear facial expression of an abuse victim, but I imagine how horrible those for whom this was the real trigger felt.

Those who don't like similar reviews, may not read and go about their business. But, if anyone from the Larian team is still watching the forum, I would really like them to know that we are waiting for the "kissing" issue to be resolved in patch 7. No one has made a statement or promises of a fix. Also, I'm sure that those players who have left one-time reviews, unless they have since abandoned the game for good and refused further purchases of Larian Studios games, are also waiting for a fix. Larian could make a statement and say a specific or at least approximate timeframe for fixing the problem, then players can temporarily calm down and go about their business, giving the developers time to resolve the situation. There is no statement.

I do not agree, and will ask everyone both to avoid attacking other fans or amplifying posts that do.

Let’s not go there again in this thread, and instead keep things civil and respectful of different opinions and those with different life experiences than our own.

Thank you!

Some people on the internet behave horribly, really, these attacks are endless. When there is blood, weak spot, the piranhas attack.
It happens everywhere, of course.
There are all sorts of complex causes.
I myself of Generation Z, as are people I know who take damage from these attacks.
But according to them, tik tok is in the lead for these attacks.

That's why in the poll that fans sent to Larian there was an item that "new content is causing attacks on the character's fans".
Because one hand made kisses where Tav's face and body language is "victims" - scared, disgruntled.
And the other hand wrote "glad to share this all with you, my love" in the epilogue, "didn't want to leave you like this" with smiles.
It's disorienting.

And when someone says "look, final proof" and a couple of passive-aggressive mocking. Well.
Why did the other hand do some nice then?
Why give a novel where Tav is freaked out while kissing and calls this person "my love"?
Why doesn't Tav have responses for companions, "save me, kill him" since we're being shoved into the "victim narrative" even in kiss, "as final kiss-proof".
"Final proof" that any character who would be with AA is scared victim - that's real damage to a lot of people I see in safespaces, and personal acquaintances. That's why there is a poll for thousands of people.

It makes bleed - character afraid on February 14 during kissing, logical - piranhas.

Shake it up a bit, a bit of toxicity from the internet - voila - a wound.
Was it intentional for February 14 or was it sloppy?
Only patch 7 will answer that.

I could agree with the fact that you don’t choose your feelings like that, yes. And I don’t mind my character being afraid, personally. In other instances the game might go there and offer a way to follow through. I can try and put aside the moments I think my character would have felt a bit more scared but it was not conveyed so well, and vice versa. At the end of the day it happens with that kind of medium, and again, plenty of well articulated ways overall to keep going.

Personally, I might not even be bothered by my character going through fear (or at the very least, it seems, discomfort) in the case of those kissing scenes introduced in patch 6. Most of all if it serves a narrative (and again, though I’ve seen people pretend it was clear double down from Larian in that instance, we don’t really have a clear answer on what they were actually really trying to convey). I mean sure, you’re now his spawn, you ask for a kiss, and it’s certainly not what you expected.

But, when we’ve said that, what do we have to say and what do we do with what it brings with it ?

First of all, those are scenes introduced lately with patch 6 and advertised as a nice romance gift (same with most romances). Before that people playing that route had been accustomed to something quite different. And even for newcomers, when you have had the opportunity to ask for Astarion to be gentle earlier and to get it, anticipating a kiss and getting that can be quite something. It’s their product, they do what they want. I don’t think that it’s strange for people to be a bit lost, to feel like what they knew has been irrevocably changed and not understand why, or to have questions in relation to how to handle things when it can have an impact on some that have a certain history. If it was intended, one way or another, and one instance where it was to be very different from what was there previously, it’s normal to wonder if even a little disclaimer could have been nice. Or normal, I think, to feel at a loss, most of all with the buzz all around, and to hope for just a word or two of clarification (not that they have to go for it), think of how it can be reconciled (again, not that they have to).

And in regard with the narrative. Even if we establish that the fear can be fine, then I wonder how, in that instance, it then is supposed to work. I go through an emotion when I ask for a kiss, and then it’s quite over, confined to that bubble. A bubble I can repeat, in complete disconnect with what the rest has to offer. And I have to wonder what the fear or associated feeling actually can inform within me, and how the game actually proposes to follow through from there (in a satisfactory way with that newly introduced contentious element would be for the best). Without that, a bubble event that can be repeated (and then our character might have particular problems) or omitted (and the accentuated narrative with it altogether), just tend to appear to me as bad writing. Which is why I tend to think it’s more a fluke, makes more sense given the litany of things to consider otherwise. But that’s just my opinion, who knows.

Just to say I personally don’t mind the fear or other, and I’m game with a lot of narratives if they can get me to engage in a way that is convincing enough. Focusing on a bubble element in this manner wouldn’t seem like one way to go, as is. Those were my thoughts on what I think I can say from the ideas that fear happens and there’s a narrative, in relation with other issues I can think of. I am aware that it’s probably a repetition of what I previously said, so I’ll try to refrain in the future. But still, I’ll read any development with pleasure.

Unfortunately, some places on the internet seem to be a cesspool of malice, spite and victim blaming, only God knows why. And the patch not only made a "victim" out of the character, but also out of real players (SA&DV survivors especially or people suffering from depression), and something like that attracts the malice of making a perpetrator-victim reversal and to enjoy it. Which in turn is also a reason, besides shame, why many survivors are afraid to speak out publicly.



Just to clarify, these scenes occur also to the character if they're mortal and not a vampire.


Yes, it's a bubble disconnected to the rest of the story, but this is in my opinion a reason, why these scenes on Tav's side are not only ridiculous and ooc, but why they are so highly poblematic and triggering for so many people. Tav behaving like being sexual abused, when asking for a kiss, or some kink material for sadistic disorders is so much unexpected, as Tav and the story around these scenes are consensual and the player has always the choice and agency to let Tav love his partner and show consent. Tav is happy before and after this non-con show.
I know some fictional hard stuff or games with a lot of r** and non-con scenes of different characters, also group non-con stuff, but the story is clear for the player or the viewer to get SA, non-con or sexual deviant scenes. But here in BG3 it's out of the blue in a 15-30 seconds bubble, without warning and without being connected to the story around, that's why it's so triggering for so many people.

Thank you for clarifying Zayir.

I’m trying to think about it all with that optic of a particular narrative. I guess you can also have the same reaction to this as a mortal. But yes, I’ve seen so many comments focused on the spawn thing, the idea that now you’re fully at his mercy (and some seem to like it more that way), that it bears specifying again. That’s not even touching the fact a player character who is a spawn still has a tadpole. I would say that it adds to the litany of things that would render the “double down on narrative” angle too clunky for me.

For the rest, I think I understand what you’re saying. Too much ambiguity is sometimes not great. It presents the player with a setup and possible ways to deal with it that could resemble real life quite a lot (good moments, ones like that, avoidance tactics and the like). While not presenting the player with even a way to role play a healthy come back attitude with those new scenes. And there’s also the fact that for some, it might just be conducive to be more blasé with some things ? Again, I don’t know if that’s exactly what you were talking about, but it made me think nevertheless. For what it’s worth.

I think the new kisses was shocking for me because I did a normal playthrough at the time of the kiss drop. I did not look it up even though I saw Patch 6 introduced some new kisses. I wanted it to be a fresh experience.
It's a difference when just looking at the kisses in a video and actually experience them first hand with a character you have built for maybe... a month or something around that time.

For reference, I have not experienced any IRL sexual abuse and I love the D/S vibe in the AA romance.

In fear of repeating myself I also have to mention that I do not think the (cartoonish extreme) fear face or the angry faces have anything to do on a Tavs face in a romantic KISS animation.
...unless you want us to be really turned off from our romance? Because they are a REAL turn off as they are now.

If you look at the "night of the turning" scene it is done very well in that regard. It does not shove a expression on the player. The pause as Astarion in straddling Tav lets the player think and shows respect from Astarion (and to the player from the ones who made the scene) and that is important. Tav is shown with a thinking face which is appropiate.

Speaking of bubbles, you would think making it seamless into and out of the enviorment is the first thing you think about as a dev or animatior? This thing is choppy and cut out from the rest. Maybe I'm just getting more and more pissed as I wait over here, but to say it frankly it's just a plain old BAD job.

And I really hate any kind of Gen vs Gen debate, we are all humans and every Gen have bad and good apples. Kids do and say stupid things, god knows I did.

But would you be so much bothered if Tav showed a cheeky, slightly smiling face like they where into it during those kisses?

I think it would be far better to have Tav playful in the scene than have Tav fearful and subsequently triggering most people playing that romance route.

Yeah, I don't think "most" people are triggered by that scene. That seems patently excessive.

"Most" people are probably nowhere near triggered.

In general, I would argue that Ascended Astarion is high evil, not a personal bad boy. This is important because of Ascended Astarion's potential role in the Forgotten Realms setting.

A level of respect has to be paid to what the character actually is. Which is to say evil incarnate, the result of an unheard of infernal ritual. The ritual literally shifted Astarion's entire personality, and he was already an evil charlatan spawn to begin with. It took that darkness to new heights previously unexplored.

In general, it all comes down to this:

"There's no more 'humanity' in Ascended Astarion. He is gone, leaving a newly formed evil behind. That is the narrative presented in the game."

"But I don't like that narrative. I prefer this narrative!"

"I'm sorry you feel that way, but IMO the game chose it's own narrative integrity over your personal fantasy. Sometimes that happens in storytelling."

*

I truly hope Larian doubles down on this and corrects later dialogue options reflecting what happened in the dark ritual.

Oh, I would be quite happy if there was playfulness, that would be quite my thing actually, and would go well with some of my characters. That’s kind of the dynamic I go with when interacting with Astarion most of the time, even when just friends. I also understand some people have a problem with the way the kisses are, which is not the case for me, so I have to at least hope it would make things a bit better for them too.

I’m just willing to entertain the idea of the fear and the narrative because it’s what I’ve encountered when reading conversations, as answers. I’m willing to entertain the idea and confront it with my first thoughts on the subject. For the moment I think it still falls short and goes with quite a lot of secondary problems to be satisfied with it (and why I think more of a fluke as the culprit).

I love my own dark fantasies, and like I said I could be game for many things if well crafted. So fear for my character could be an option. As is, first of all I find it really badly implemented (mechanically speaking) if it’s intentionally about it (so, the fluke again). Second, it goes with the question about how it changed things, how it was advertised, the disclaimer. I will probably be fine, that doesn’t mean my experience will be the experience of others. Third, I love my dark fantasies with more reactivity and cohesion, less ambiguity.

So, all in all, I’m very much in favour of a change of expression (if the expression is intentional I would say there’s a lot of work necessary to make it make sense). And, again, I’d be quite happy with playful, mischievous and the like. Is it impossible to have everyone do all they want and have all they want, maybe. But something less traumatic is possible, since it was apparently possible before patch 6.



JandK, I don't know exactly how many people were triggered. It was not the only problem though (like also potentially an unexplained sudden big change in an established part of the story for people). And given the way it was advertised (again, nothing to prepare people to a big double down, just letting them think here is some more romantic kinky thing to add to preexisting experience), I'd say that doesn't mean it's nothing important at all, and an opportunity to declare tactfulness dead (because whatever). Just my opinion.

It's interesting to read your thoughts and opinions there too. I came to BG3 without knowledge of DnD or the first two installments. I think I could be interested by what you describe, if done well. I don't know if I share your optimism that such a story could be tweaked in neatly enough, most of all with the things they seem to have said when they announced they were going to do something else now. They would have to have such plans too, of course. I mean, they wrote Astarion and the romance with him after Ascension in a certain way until now, and have given no explanation on what they wanted to convey exactly with the scenes we're talking about, apart from romance bits in a patch. It would still be rough for people who got attached to what they've known prior, at the very least, I think. Edit : I wonder sometimes about who has a hard relationship with the realities of the game. I know there's the facts from the lore, but there's also the entirety of the writing of ascended Astarion and his romance until patch 6. And not much that is official to explain the scenes (player character in it really) in said patch, except here is some romance stuff. Just conjectures from other people, more or less probable than other conjectures. I can understand having a read of things, knowing the lore, wanting more for a character. As is though, it's just another flavour of wishful thinking to me.

Precisely this opinion and doubling down on the current state of the kiss opinion :the writing should of been there before rather than it thrown at people as it was which is the most significant problem.

General consensus is he's bad ,this is a bad route but not necessarily a tadpoled Tav is abused and 100% victim route.

You can keep going around the mulberry bush with people happy and unhappy with the change All I ask for is the substance to back it up or get that sweet spot that was back before patch 6.

As said I like Astarion generally as a character I am not an AA fan or Spawn Fan he is both in my games , I'm mostly fine with the animations of him except kneeling anywhere unless I have at least a smile on my player characters face.

The evil endings they are planning have got to be the Raphael/dark urge /absolute endings I can't see them adding more regarding AA only routes his story is done the kiss is out of place in it's little bubble.

This is it. I severely doubt a mainstream game company wants to "double down" on making players RP abuse when nearly 6K have given their feedback through a poll saying they don't like it.

If they wanted to write that as a narrative, they had their chance pre full release. The writer is gone now. They're not going to rewrite the entire story to appease the players who don't like that path. That wouldn't make any sense.

Making the kisses non-con every time, even after knowing what to expect, while the rest of the relationship is consensual, is illogical.

Once again, I'm all for changing the faces, but what's the source for the 6k answers? I'm on an AA subreddit and haven't seen any new polls, IDK if I've missed something. The last one had 600 answers, so with a 10x jump in numbers I feel like I would've seen something. Sorry for the, uh, "pickiness"? since it's probably quite irrelevant to the whole conversation, I'm autistic and I always want to make sure everything's sourced and avoiding word of mouth.

I am wondering if they overhaul the dock scene in general as it has quite a few problems - all of them mentioned in various threads throughout the forum - and a common complaint when you end up with the evil gang is, that this is not reflected in the narration.

I'm not so convinced there is definitely a couple of aspects about the dock scene that are thrown into question however that dock scene is to do with destroying the brain .
where in my name Bhaal / Absolute /Raphael just get the straight to credits .
thats what I think they'll release.