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Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: cyseal] #658447
25/01/20 07:21 PM
25/01/20 07:21 PM
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Sordak Offline
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because only the strawman coutns doesnt it?
Because there is no option that is believeable but not realistic.

Also
>women
its that old argument hat just doesnt hold up to reality.
Play an MMORPG with a woman and look at her avatar. People tend to create fantasies for themselves, for a large poriton of women, beeing attractive is one.

And to add to that, it still is mostly a hobby for men, look at Svens post from way back.
Theres no point trying to chase "the woman audience".
Those women that always liked Fantasy RPGs will continue liking fantasy RPGs, those women that dont like fantasy RPGs will not start liking fantasy RPGs because you populate them with Disgusting Hags
Recent Western RPGs should be enaugh proof.

Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: Sordak] #658450
25/01/20 08:15 PM
25/01/20 08:15 PM
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Well, where I commute I don't see that many women wearing chain mail bikinis and I don't think it's a self-esteem issue. Regardless, I'm not in favor of making female characters look like "disgusting hags" as you put it although I'm not very keen on this non sequitur positing that attraction is only attained through nakedness. It's mostly combat situations that become hilarious to me when certain characters forgo protection for stylishness (and there isn't any magic or spellcasting involved either). It's less of a bother when you're in town or at a pub for sure.

Last edited by korotama; 25/01/20 08:16 PM. Reason: typos
Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: cyseal] #658451
25/01/20 08:24 PM
25/01/20 08:24 PM
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theres a middle road and its what most stylized fantasy tends to take.
Also, relay they dont?
Id say modern fashion gets pretty close to chainmail bikini levels when its apropriateley warm.

I for one wait for mens fashion to catch up with RPG costumes still, but the Leif Nelson brand seems to be catching the drift

Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: Sordak] #658452
25/01/20 08:49 PM
25/01/20 08:49 PM
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korotama Offline
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Originally Posted by Sordak
theres a middle road and its what most stylized fantasy tends to take.
Also, relay they dont?
Id say modern fashion gets pretty close to chainmail bikini levels when its apropriateley warm.

I for one wait for mens fashion to catch up with RPG costumes still, but the Leif Nelson brand seems to be catching the drift

That could be true. I haven't been to the beach for nearly a decade. It's up to Larian how they want to go about it after all. Vanity and partial nudity aren't deal-breakers for me but female characters with actual character development (not very realistic, eh? hehe just kidding) are certainly more memorable.

Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: Sordak] #658453
25/01/20 09:18 PM
25/01/20 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Sordak
Lies...more lies

I'll breakdown a few
Originally Posted by Sordak
"Muh realism" meme,

Give proof realism has become the industry-standard aesthetic in armor and weapons.
Originally Posted by Sordak
Dark Souls armors are BELIEVEABLE, yet not realistic

Bucket-helms are helmets from real life. Armets are helmets from real life.
Originally Posted by Sordak
"muh realism" is a blight upon the fantasy genre and recent trends like game of thrones (Despite not beeing realistic at all) have facilltated this

You admit GoT is not realistic but simultaneously reference GoT as evidence realism's in bad taste. These premises contradict. Given the truth: GoT's armor designs are not based off real-world armor; they can't be an example of designs based off real-world armor.
Originally Posted by Sordak
Also it is ridiculous to equate WoW with "fantasy" style.

WoW is not only a fantastical (meaning not based on anything from the real world) art style, it has become the default aesthetic for fantasy games.
Originally Posted by Sordak
The Warcraft style is outdated ... from a bygone age

WoW's age is irrelevant. WoW's pertinent because it's the most influential art style on the gaming industry in the fantasy genre.
Originally Posted by Sordak
The Warcraft style is non existant in contemporary fantasy,

A flat lie. Most games with fantasy characters like DOTA or LoL or [choose a chinese or korean mobile game] are approximate to the anime -> Joe Maduiera -> Samwise style.

What games do you have in mind when you write, "contemporary fantasy"?
Originally Posted by Sordak
The Warcraft style is...a strawman

A strawman argument is when someone invents a bad position, attributes it to the other party, and dismantles it, in an attempt to convince the audience the bad position belongs to his opponent and trick his opponent into defending (and thereby adopting) a weak premise.

Warcraft's art style is real. I didn't write, "WoW is Sordak's favorite art style". I wrote, ~"WoW's art style became the default aesthetic in fantasy videogames".
-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-
It sounds like you enjoyed For Honor and Dark Souls and have conflated them with your vaguely-defined personal aesthetics. You don't like WoW and so want to disassociate it from the games you like. It's disruptive to attempts to analyze objectively to bring-in the baggage of your subjective preferences. To say in essence, "I like [Game A]. I dislike [Game B]. I like [Art Style A]. I dislike [Artstyle B]. Game A must have Artstyle A because I like it. Game B must have Artstyle B because I dislike it."

You and I both don't rate our games entirely by how they look. I can say there have been games I've played which looked great -but sucked. I have played other games which looked fugly -but were great fun. I am sure you would agree with me, you have lived the same experience.

There were fun silly parts in the Divinity games. Wearing a literal bucket for a helmet made the game more amusing. Little goblin-guy with the cartoonish-big bomb in the first game was also entertaining.

Please don't misunderstand me. When I say, "realistic" I don't mean, "serious" as in no-fun zone. Larian has made lighthearted fun fair in the past. I'm sure Baldur's Gate 3 will have its' lighthearted fun and we will both enjoy it smile

-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-*x.-

As for what women wear, please don't misconstrue my enjoyment of real-world armor as advocacy for dressing women as men. I appreciate the confusion because people who do advocate such a position know it's indefensible and so couch their meaning in, "realism" as an agreeable-sounding euphemism to trick the unwary.

In real life men fight wars. A depiction in-touch with reality would therefore not include women in combat roles. Mordhau again offers an example of realism.

Liars will disingenuously pretend normal men and women are an assault on the features of a fantasy setting which depart from real life: magic, monsters, etc. The naked truth is such deviation from the default functions as a means to convince people of the lie the sexes are interchangeable. As Bernays might say, if a statement is repeated continuously, through videogames, youtube, netflix, spotify, etc. then a % of the population will become a chorus parroting this statement regardless of the veracity of the statement.

Instead of repeating such a line, I say the same here and now as in the Re: Art design for female characters thread
Originally Posted by Hamster_Baller
Which game does Larian want to sell like?

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Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: cyseal] #658460
26/01/20 03:07 AM
26/01/20 03:07 AM
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Omegaphallic Offline
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I think they could take a note from Star Trek Online in reguards to character appearance, high degree of character appearance customization (more then any game I've seen before or since), where you can make a character a gorgeous skimpy outfit wearing Orions, or an Armoured up fat, scarred, ugly Nausicaan. Then again they say playing space barbie is the real end game for Star Trek Online.

Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: cyseal] #658461
26/01/20 03:13 AM
26/01/20 03:13 AM
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vometia Offline

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I remain unconvinced by the "women don't play video games" assertion, though me saying "most of my gamer friends are also women" isn't any more convincing than saying most seem to be men on the basis of one's own experiences; but I recall various surveys indicating it's closer to parity than sometimes assumed. Though as ever the devil's in the detail, I dare say.

There is a conspicuous lack of female gamers on a lot of forums, similarly to how there're fewer "older" gamers in spite of the fact that video games have been a popular pastime since the '70s. I facepalmed when someone said without irony, "we're the first generation to play video games" and thinking, I'm more than twice your age and we weren't the first.

I suppose in both cases I'm reminded of e.g. "women in IT" or rather the lack thereof. It wasn't always so and when I started off, we had a near 50:50 mix of people at my employer in what was one of several fairly large teams. We weren't unusual in that respect. What started to put women off wasn't a lack of interest nor a "macho culture": it was toxic management which started to grow out of control through the '90s and has never got better.

"Toxic": there's that word. It's why I don't bother with the Steam forums, for instance. I know whenever a search takes me there it's going to be two or three posts before I see someone being an arse and as a result I often don't bother even trying to find information there let alone participate. And that sort of environment tends to distil down very quickly to include only those with the endurance and willpower to bother with it; increasingly large swathes eventually conclude "life's too short" and move on. Young guys do have more endurance than most of the population, whether through genetics or social conditioning, so ultimately that probably explains it, especially when the ripple-effect of the respective demographics has time to develop.

As for bikini armour, as far as I'm concerned, Boris Vallejo's style has its place and that place isn't everywhere. I don't dislike it but equally I'm also not a huge fan. It's not some stereotype feminist miserableism, just personal preference. Same reason I feel no inclination to parade around in a bikini IRL, which isn't (just) down to... well, I did title my avatar "fat old goth", but even if I had a much shapelier figure and was 20 years younger I still wouldn't. Some people like that style, whether for themselves or others, other people are "meh".

So that's pretty much my view of video games. Actually I do like some realism, such as with swords, as mentioned: I like them to look like actual, real swords, but at the same time nice examples thereof. They can be embellished a bit, but I'd rather not see swords with huge pointy bat-wings and encrusted in jewels because I think it looks daft and it actually takes away from the aesthetic of what makes a sword a sword. And it's much the same with armour or its absence. I may not care for Vallejo-style bikini armour but neither do I want... well, Brienne, who was making a point both within the story but also to GRRM's readers. I find it an interesting point at that; just not all of the time. And I did feel sad when DOS's high-heeled armour was dropped, along with handstands after climbing a ladder and so on because they were too "unrealistic"; I suppose at least the sneaking barrels survived the cull.

I may like realism, but there are limits. If I wanted absolute realism I'd go through the front door and venture... outside. *shudder*


J'aime le fromage.
Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: vometia] #658462
26/01/20 04:06 AM
26/01/20 04:06 AM
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Omegaphallic Offline
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Originally Posted by vometia
I remain unconvinced by the "women don't play video games" assertion, though me saying "most of my gamer friends are also women" isn't any more convincing than saying most seem to be men on the basis of one's own experiences; but I recall various surveys indicating it's closer to parity than sometimes assumed. Though as ever the devil's in the detail, I dare say.

There is a conspicuous lack of female gamers on a lot of forums, similarly to how there're fewer "older" gamers in spite of the fact that video games have been a popular pastime since the '70s. I facepalmed when someone said without irony, "we're the first generation to play video games" and thinking, I'm more than twice your age and we weren't the first.

I suppose in both cases I'm reminded of e.g. "women in IT" or rather the lack thereof. It wasn't always so and when I started off, we had a near 50:50 mix of people at my employer in what was one of several fairly large teams. We weren't unusual in that respect. What started to put women off wasn't a lack of interest nor a "macho culture": it was toxic management which started to grow out of control through the '90s and has never got better.

"Toxic": there's that word. It's why I don't bother with the Steam forums, for instance. I know whenever a search takes me there it's going to be two or three posts before I see someone being an arse and as a result I often don't bother even trying to find information there let alone participate. And that sort of environment tends to distil down very quickly to include only those with the endurance and willpower to bother with it; increasingly large swathes eventually conclude "life's too short" and move on. Young guys do have more endurance than most of the population, whether through genetics or social conditioning, so ultimately that probably explains it, especially when the ripple-effect of the respective demographics has time to develop.

As for bikini armour, as far as I'm concerned, Boris Vallejo's style has its place and that place isn't everywhere. I don't dislike it but equally I'm also not a huge fan. It's not some stereotype feminist miserableism, just personal preference. Same reason I feel no inclination to parade around in a bikini IRL, which isn't (just) down to... well, I did title my avatar "fat old goth", but even if I had a much shapelier figure and was 20 years younger I still wouldn't. Some people like that style, whether for themselves or others, other people are "meh".

So that's pretty much my view of video games. Actually I do like some realism, such as with swords, as mentioned: I like them to look like actual, real swords, but at the same time nice examples thereof. They can be embellished a bit, but I'd rather not see swords with huge pointy bat-wings and encrusted in jewels because I think it looks daft and it actually takes away from the aesthetic of what makes a sword a sword. And it's much the same with armour or its absence. I may not care for Vallejo-style bikini armour but neither do I want... well, Brienne, who was making a point both within the story but also to GRRM's readers. I find it an interesting point at that; just not all of the time. And I did feel sad when DOS's high-heeled armour was dropped, along with handstands after climbing a ladder and so on because they were too "unrealistic"; I suppose at least the sneaking barrels survived the cull.

I may like realism, but there are limits. If I wanted absolute realism I'd go through the front door and venture... outside. *shudder*


I think it comes down to choice, bikini armour shouldn't be blocked from the game, but it should also be optional with other choices available. The problem really only arises when one side forces their taste on the other.

And I get what your saying about young men having more endurance, but I chalk that up to by young men being used to being shit on more by society and villified and so psychologically resilience develops and/or crushing depression.

Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: Omegaphallic] #658477
26/01/20 01:45 PM
26/01/20 01:45 PM
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vometia Offline

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Originally Posted by Omegaphallic
I think it comes down to choice, bikini armour shouldn't be blocked from the game, but it should also be optional with other choices available. The problem really only arises when one side forces their taste on the other.

I agree, fwiw. It's less clear-cut when it comes to deciding how much of what gets doled out as random gear to NPCs etc but in saying that I'm moving the goalposts a little. In terms of how people dress their characters I don't see why any of it should be a problem.

Originally Posted by Omegaphallic
And I get what your saying about young men having more endurance, but I chalk that up to by young men being used to being shit on more by society and villified and so psychologically resilience develops and/or crushing depression.

I think that both are true. Certain elements of society do love their villains, whoever they may be at the time. IME the overwhelming majority pay no heed and take people how they find them, but it is hard to ignore the movers and shakers when they have loud voices and influence.


J'aime le fromage.
Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: cyseal] #658483
26/01/20 04:53 PM
26/01/20 04:53 PM
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Sordak Offline
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@Hamster_Baller

Ok .
>Gibe proof
im saying its a blight on the genre, not that its the standard, definitly veering into that direction tho and im not jus ttalking about video games but also TTRPGs where that trend rears its ugly head.
See Mordhau, See PoX , see PoE, see the Gothic remake attempt. Even witcher to a degree
Of course its hard to pin down tripple A fatnasy RPGs because there havent been any made in quite a while.
In TTRPGs you have to observe the scene realy.

>Your argument contradicts itself
it doesnt.
Part of my point is that "Muh realism" people have no idea about realism whatsoever.
>Dark Souls Helmets are real helmets
and this proves my point.
Dark Souls armor is believeable, not realistic, those pieces existed... kind of. But not with those proportions, not with that ornamentation, not with those deformations.
Mordhau meanwhile attempts to model stufff 1:1 on real life replica or stuff that still lies around, making it look boring and out of place because it doesnt actually looks used but like a bunch of museum pieces strapped together.

>Warcraft style, DotA, LoL
So three completley different artstyles are the same?
Ok.
Just because its colourfull and you dont like it doesnt mean its the same thing.
Porportions are different, the way armor is presented is different, even the colour scheme varies greatly between those three with LoL beeing the closest to warcraft but actually beeing much closer to a mixture of a Marvel cartoon and Korean stuff.

yeah you wrote "WoWs artstyle has become the default"; thats wrong, its a lie. Show me a tripple A video game that came out with that style.
Show me an MMORPG coming out after Wildstar with that style.
The last normal RPG with that style to come out was Amalur, and that came out before Skyrim did IIRC.

>For Honor Darksouls, you conflate thigns yadda yadda
Wrong.
I like For Honor and Dark Souls specificalyl because their styles do this very thing.
Remain believeable while not sticking specifically to realism
Witcher goes into this with the design of major characters, but tries to stick to renaissance aesthetic a lot.

>I dont rate games for how they look
I do, artstyle is important.
just like "Muh realism", "Muh gameplay" is just as much of a meme. Its a combination of both.
A game that plays like crap can look great but will still fail, see Ryse son of rome.
A game that plays great but looks like ass will still not gain mass appeal. See Dwarf Fortress beeing a cult classic but still basically a niche title, while even a minor visual upgrade (And mechanical downgrade) like Rimworld can make a one man developer quite rich.

>Mordhau offers an example in realism
Pretty sure mordhau added female characters in a patch.


@Vometia
Honestly i think the same applies to IT as applies to Video games.
Back when IT was a thing for nerds. ONly nerds did it.
Both men and women can be tech nerds so the split was 50/50
Now IT has become an important business branch and are in high demand, lots of men gravitate towards it because... well because men gravitate towards technical jobs with logical applications.

The same is true with Video games, tho i dont think video games were adopted by women early.
What im saying is. The kind of game that a Fantasy RPG is, appeals more to typical male interests. Which is violence, heroism, progression, risk taking and so on.
Fantasy RPGs are based on Tolkien and Tolkiien based his works of Norse and Anglo Saxon sagas who in many cases were stories about men who did manly things liike kill things and kill people and plunder towns and fight other men.
They inspried young men to be warriors.
Now they inspire young men to be warriors in front of the PC.

These same stories always appealed to Women.
but they didnt appeal to ALL women. They appealed to a higher percentage of men than women.
This is not a bad thing.

its not that women "Dont play games". Its that less women play games.
Its a fact. Women primarily play Mobile games, because that appeals to them more.

No ammount of pandering to women will get those woment aht were never interrested in Fantasy RPGs to like fantasy RPGs.
And if you tried to do it, you dont do it by desexualizing women.

You do it by adding Hot men to it.
I certainly know a few women that liked the Witcher TV show because it had a Burly hunk in it

>Women in comabt roles etc.

Hard Agree.
but its a fantasy setting and Forgotten Realms started out as the literal "Magical Realm" of a sex positive hippie.
Its not a Hema LARP setting



Last edited by Sordak; 26/01/20 05:03 PM.
Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: cyseal] #658484
26/01/20 05:06 PM
26/01/20 05:06 PM
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cyseal Offline OP
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I like armors which tell a story behind the character whether male or female. In Dark Souls there is a story about Artorias who was a knight corrupted by the Abyss. Abyss is a place and metaphor for darkness of the soul. When you see him and his movement, you know there was a battle. He was wounded. Abyss changed him.
To conclude. Armor tells a story about survival and dignity.

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Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: cyseal] #658485
26/01/20 05:51 PM
26/01/20 05:51 PM
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vometia Offline

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I think the "women play games on Facebook" is as much of a stereotype as "only pubescent spotty boys play RPGs". As much as there's a small element of truth to both, it's only that: small. Most of the other women gamers I know prefer RPGs. Some even prefer the tactical stuff that does my head in. I prefer avoiding combat and prefer to talk my way out of situations, which is why I'm not so keen on too much combat focus: it doesn't interest me, I'm crap at it and as much as I like to get my stats honed as much as anyone else... well, I guess the whole point is role-playing. And from the perspective of me as a player, I like exploring, finding interesting ways to do things and not living a vicarious world of pain. I like combat where I can run away as long as I don't spend the whole game doing it.

As for hot men... ew, sweaty. Don't get me wrong, if I'm up for a drink or a curry or a virtual brawl then I love the chaps in my life but scantily clad... er, put more clothes on lads. Preferably a tank. You like tanks, I like tanks, tanks are awesome. You look much better wearing a Challenger 2 than a kevlar speedo.


J'aime le fromage.
Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: cyseal] #658486
26/01/20 06:35 PM
26/01/20 06:35 PM
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Sordak Offline
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Well its not a Stereotype its a statistical fact.

Of course the reality of that statement is that those women that play Facebook games just dont play "Games" at all. They play facebook games because they got boring jobs (like a lot of people do) and need soemthing to distract themselves with in the office

Anecodtal evidence is anecdotal.
A lot of my friends like dungeons and dragons, whey protein and jojos bizarre adventure

I dont think thats because these things are popular, i think i surround myself with people who like the same things as i do

Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: Sordak] #658488
26/01/20 07:18 PM
26/01/20 07:18 PM
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In that case, I suppose the discussion has hit a dead end. Perhaps it would be helpful to post links to studies that deal with video game habits accounting for gender and that are based on statistically representative samples? As for armor design, that too would be an interesting area of study but I sincerely doubt there's a single one out there.

Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: cyseal] #658490
26/01/20 10:33 PM
26/01/20 10:33 PM
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id actually be genuinly interrested in that

Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: cyseal] #658588
31/01/20 10:04 PM
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I am hoping for no class restrictions, meaning do not turn it to charge for certain classes. Offer them all from the start. or at min 90% of them. I have no issue paying for character slots, and some extra races, skins, clothing, hair….etc… I just hate when games charge for classes.

A big thing for me is character development/ uniqueness. Please customize like no other the PVE side. I do not need doppelgangers running around…look that’s the 6th Acrobat Halfling Thief with a pogo stick in black leather armor, and a ruby brooch. I want to see good characters, evil characters, don’t give a rats butt characters. Rich characters poor characters etc... I want to develop an alter ego. Not meta character following a standardized build. Make us make choices that develop, open doors, close doors, restrict, open up new horizons as we go. If I have a character that is .015 % chance of an exact clone then I would be happy.

Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: cyseal] #658604
01/02/20 10:29 PM
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Sordak Offline
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i dont know what exaclty you are talking about.
This is a single player game not an MMORPG so you probably dont have to worry about running into "clones"

Re: Suggestions list and brainstorm ideas [Re: Sordak] #658608
01/02/20 11:03 PM
01/02/20 11:03 PM
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Hawke Online content
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Originally Posted by Sordak
i dont know what exaclty you are talking about.
This is a single player game not an MMORPG so you probably dont have to worry about running into "clones"


It's not singleplayer but Coop that being said it's still not an MMO.

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